Microsoft in their infinite wisdom has replaced the Hide Desktop icon with Copilot.

yopasol , 3 months ago

Pajeets ruining everything they touch....

shotgun_crab , 3 months ago

Muscle memory abuse

nickwitha_k , 3 months ago

That's what made me refuse to use the Reddit official app before their API garbage. Every update was a gamble as to whether they'd try to make me spend money through muscle memory.

Pika , 3 months ago

reminds me of discord

TheBat , 3 months ago

Never used it. It asked for my phone number for verification when I tried to sign up, a long time back. I was like https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/382/535/298.gif

kratoz29 , 3 months ago

I guess user name does not check out.

13617 , 3 months ago

LMAO?? HOW TO GET ME TO NEVER USE IT

Aatube , 3 months ago

You can still re-enable it in the taskbar settings. Personally I like asking an AI to do stuff, so I like the Copilot icon in my taskbar, BUT NOT ON THE FREAKING BOTTOM RIGHT CORNER GODDAMMIT THAT'S FOR LIKE NOTIFICATIONS
AND NOW NOTIFICATIONS GO OVER COPILOT BUT NOT QUICK SETTINGS FOR SOME REASON AND IF YOU BRING UP QUICK SETTINGS IT SHIFTS TO THE LEFT AND HIDES NOTIFICATIONS??
at least I won't accidentally hide my desktop while clicking copilot in a place where it shouldn't have been
except oh no signing in to unlock copilot doesn't even fucking work

time to grind on my giant arch migration checklist and hunt for a good foobar2000 alternative which i'll likely never finish

cyberpunk007 , 3 months ago

For me, there are 2 on the top left and too right of the start menu pop up and they don't even look the same. Whoever is in charge of UI/UX needs to be shot. Holy shit. Windows just feels like a taped together heap of shit. The competition is way better.

QuaternionsRock , 3 months ago

Holy shit. Windows just feels like a taped together heap of shit.

I thought that was pretty much an open secret since Windows ME. As a begrudging Windows user who loves Linux infinitely more, my impression has been that they’re just dialing that shit to 11 (hah) while they complete their transition to being the high-margin SAAS empire known as AzureCopilotGithubOfficeGamepassSoft. I kind of doubt that Windows revenue is even worth labeling on their pie charts anymore.

Gestrid , 3 months ago

It felt less taped together (in the UI sense, anyway) before Windows 8, honestly. Mainly because they didn't do semiannual or annual (or whatever the schedule is now) feature updates.

Windows 8 was... Windows 8.

Windows 10 never felt finished, especially whenever they shifted the UI design between updates. Some things would follow the new look, while others wouldn't.

And now they're repeating that with Windows 11.

QuaternionsRock , 3 months ago

Windows 7 was alright, except for nearly every aspect of its 64-bit infrastructure. But it was also basically a $100 patch for Vista that took 2.5 years to make so they could put that house fire in their rear view mirror while there were still people inside. Oh, and probably to fuck up government work for the better part of a decade.

Gestrid , 3 months ago

Yeah, it definitely wasn't perfect, but I was primarily focusing on the UI since that's what the others in this thread were focusing on.

menzentian , 3 months ago

For a Foobar2000 alternative have you seen Deadbeef . It doesn't replace everything but has the same sort of modular interface.

Aatube , 3 months ago

I've actually asked about alternatives in the EndeavourOS forum and talked about it there:

I just found out about DeaDBeeF. Unfortunately, it's not what I'll be using.
It is quite a one-to-one match to foobar2000! It has the same modularity and customization. However, the plugin ecosystem is nowhere as big. There's no Coverflow plugin.
And there was a lyrics plugin, forked after an earlier plugin stopped development. However, the developer quit after decreasing passion coincided with the DeadBeeF developer removing the already finished Russian translation in the wake of the Russian war for whatever reason. Needless to say, I am not comfortable with it both feature-wise and ethics-wise.

Strawberry and all Clementine (or should I say, Amarok?)-likes don't strike my fancies. They seem to be in pretty good hands, but I just don't like the side-tab layout (plus the aforementioned problem with lyrics). Amarok seems to have switched their design, and since I plan on using KDE either way, if the usage is good enough and I can't find anything better, I'll either use Amarok or Sayonara, which also seems promising.

refurbishedrefurbisher , 3 months ago

I'm personally more of a fan of Audacious

Also worth noting that foobar2000 works in WINE.

Aatube , 3 months ago

Audacious only has the playlist and library stuff, from what I can see.

Wining it is still going to stick out of place and the external window plugin thing I want is probably gonna be weird.

zourn , 3 months ago

I personally really like StartAllBack. I just want a clean classic Windows experience.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

Not sure if it'll help with OP's rage issues (I skipped over the all-caps and punctuation-free stuff), but I've long been a fan of Open Shell. Makes the Windows experience extremely customizable.

Mango , 3 months ago

What's wrong with foobar?

Aatube , 3 months ago

It has no version for Linux.

Mango , 3 months ago

WHAT.

I swear foobar is what I used to use... I'm having the memory bad.

Aatube , 3 months ago

Well, you could maybe Wine it, but it's still going to stick out of place and the external window plugin thing I want is probably gonna be weird. You may have also confused it with Guarapiranga.

Mango , 3 months ago

Naw, I'm pretty sure I just have it confused with when I was switching between windows and Linux a lot. I vaguely remember going crazy trying to find a decent player on Linux to match. I think I went with Amarok.

claymore , 3 months ago

I've used ncmpcpp and more recently Cantata to replace foobar, not as much customization but it gets a lot of stuff right for me.

GluWu , 3 months ago

I've been using Linux since Ubuntu was in the single digits. Looks like windows entering the double digits is finally the end. I thought win10 would be able to stay relatively unmolested, but nope, copilot button and bullshit right there in the bar. Why can't you just leave us the fuck alone. Your driving everyone away who doesn't have a professional obligation to use your OS. I'll still have to keep a old win10 boot drive that never connects to a network so I can play games and use CAD that Linux can't. As a KDE fanboi they've added pretty much everything I've always wished for and plasma 6 is launching.

Now is my time. Fuck you Microsoft. I won't miss you.

Granixo , 3 months ago

Didin't Linux had FreeCAD?

GluWu , 3 months ago

Yes, and holy shit has it come so far. Unfortunately in the professional world you often just need the native program to open the file. Even just for compatability, but rolling back and/or modifying is only possible within its native software.

synapse1278 , 3 months ago

Would OnShape be an option for you ? I haven't booted up Windows since I was able to work with OnShape to replace Solidworks. But I just do hobby projects. I didn't have to worry about compatibility for collaboration.

captain_aggravated , 3 months ago

FreeCAD...is getting there. They're actually heading toward a 1.0 release, and bringing usability and convenience features. I'd say by 2025 it'll be a better value proposition than the "Free non-commerical use drawbackware" tier offerings from Onshape or Fusion360.

cyberpunk007 , 3 months ago

I flirted with gnome this install around. I'm so lazy to reinstall yet again to get back to my previous plasma. Seriously Linux is a way better experience these days, I wish those that could would just give it an honest shot. The learning curve isn't too bad once you understand a couple things.

Fal , 3 months ago

Gnome is awful. It's almost as bad as windows. Basically 0 customization, and getting worse every release. I can't even fathom how you would voluntarily switch from plasma to gnome and not immediately switch back

ganoo , 3 months ago

Idk with a couple of extensions I really enjoy the GNOME work-flow. Although I admit KDE on my SteamDeck has been tempting me lately.

Fal , 3 months ago

KDE is amazing and you should give it a try. It's unbelievably customizable, and is so much more seamless. Having to use gnome is almost as frustrating as having to use macos. And in a lot of the same ways. Like, trying to get a usable task bar in gnome is infuriating.

ganoo , 3 months ago

usable task bar in gnome

Just one easy to enable extension for this, but it should definitely be the default. Overall I like the stock GNOME experience and find it clean.
When you get the hang of GNOME it starts to make sense. Super key is the answer.

KDE is obviously more powerful, but I don't like customizing my desktop very much so that point is moot for me.

I'm going full KDE for the next 6 months, you should try GNOME for a bit, give it a solid chance with extensions.

Fal , 3 months ago

I'm forced to use gnome at work. It's horrible

randomname01 , 3 months ago

It just works for me, and I prefer the look to that of KDE. Like, fair enough if it’s not your cup of tea, but your basic point here is “I don’t like the workflow and I highly value customisation”, and you then act like your subjective preferences are fact.

You can customise Gnome quite a lot, btw. I’m not even saying you should give it another shot, but please just don’t act like your personal preferences are objectively accurate.

Fal , 3 months ago

I’m not even saying you should give it another shot, but please just don’t act like your personal preferences are objectively accurate.

I'm forced to use it at work if I want to use linux. You really can't, and to customize even a little bit you need lots of extra tools and maybe even access the css. For example, https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1160/dash-to-panel/ is the only way to get a usable task bar. And calling it usable is being very generous.

The gnome devs are extremely opinionated in removing configuration and features. It's honestly disgusting

cyberpunk007 , 3 months ago

I dislike how they took away minimizing windows. Please help me understand the lack of system tray. I have apps that go there and I have a plugin to bring it back and all the icons have a black background which is super annoying.

Discord, telegram, signal, flameshot, and others are in there and I don't understand how gnome intends me to access them otherwise when they're "closed" in the background.

bigMouthCommie , 3 months ago

i've always been able to minimize windows from the alt-space window menu. but they are enabling all kinds of customization through the extensions. i have transparent windows (every window, not just apps that support it as part of their functionality), tiling through the Forge extension, the tweak tool gives you lots of stuff including restoring the minimize button to where you think it should be, and there is even an extension to give you your system tray back. but now the gnome team can just focus on putting together the essential parts, and people who want thefunctionality you describe can build it and install it through the extensions.

i, too, was a bit put off when they ditched the gnome2 look and feel, and i stayed on xfce for a long time. but my job had me using windows and i found out that i like just hitting super, typing what i want to do, and then it happens.

now, the software center's tendency to tell me to reboot for updates is something else. we can hotswap kernels now. don't fucking tell me i need to reboot.

cyberpunk007 , 3 months ago

My experience with the extensions is they frequently break on gnome updates and sometimes functionality is missing when updated and it's been a disaster imo

cole , 3 months ago

that's a fair opinion, but for some people they feel the same way about KDE (me). Gnome's workflow is killer for me, and I love the consistency in design and intent with everything.

I suppose not everybody just wants customizability

mesamunefire , 3 months ago

10+ years with Linux as my daily driver (yeah I'm old). When my os updates, it's almost always with some feature that's pretty neat.

Nowadays the steamdeck or some combo of Linux with steam can play my games, do my work, and I actively make other people's lives better when I contribute.

Allero , 3 months ago

Thanks for your contribution to the Linux ecosystem!

It's people like you who make this whole thing possible

mesamunefire , 3 months ago

Anyone can. It's part of what makes it great.

Cethin , 3 months ago

Have you tried gaming on Linux lately? You don't need Windows anymore except if you use GamePass, because MS has locked that software down to Windows. The only problem game I had was The Finals until recently, and it now works on Linux. Besides that the only issue is I can't mod Baulder's Gate 1 because it requires injecting things and that doesn't work with Linux as far as I can figure out. The game runs fine.

GluWu , 3 months ago

Yes, I'm a long time mint user, and I was also a 1st batch steamdeck so I've seen how far just proton has come. There's still a handful of games that just won't work, work but not with the mods I need, or take a performance hit. I also have a driving simulator with a VR headset. I'm sure I could get it running on Linux eventually but windows just does it. Recognizes and just installed the drivers for all my hardware. And for VR, there are now a lot of solutions, but I've found windows to just be the fastest and best performing. I need every frame I can get running vr on a 2060.

Cethin , 3 months ago

Yeah, modding sucks right now. If the game let's you manually add mods without injecting, then it's fine, though manual can take a while. Nexus Mod Manager (and most others, though CKAN for KSP(1&2) works pretty well but won't launch the game through that application for me) don't work yet for Linux, but it looks like they're working on a new application that'll run natively on Linux, so I'm looking forward to that.

cole , 3 months ago

r2modman has a native Linux client as well and handles pretty much all unity games

Mango , 3 months ago

Ubuntu used to be animals!

octopus_ink , 3 months ago

It still is. There's an animal "codename" and a number for all releases.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases

Mango , 3 months ago

Oh yay!!

GluWu , 3 months ago

So many memories, dapper drake with the LTS. For some reason I used karmic koala which is 9.10 until 12. I played thousands of hours of minecraft and ksp because other that valve games those where like the only two that ran naively without fucking around with the abomination that wine was at the time.

everett , 3 months ago

Ubuntu used to be naked people!

Mango , 3 months ago

Lol what am I reading?

everett , 3 months ago

Sorry, that was the best link I could find at that moment. Since the word "ubuntu" means something like "humanity towards others," Canonical really leaned into that concept with their tagline "Linux for human beings" in the early days. This involved shipping some controversial wallpaper images and using less risque shots from the same photo shoot on things like the CD-ROM cover.

Mango , 3 months ago

🤣

fhqwgads , 3 months ago

I would be annoyed but does anyone actually use the show desktop button?

Granixo , 3 months ago

YES

pearsaltchocolatebar , 3 months ago

I honestly can't remember the last time I looked at mine. I just tap the windows key and type the first few letters of what I want to open.

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

This is the way

iAmTheTot , 3 months ago

Come on, fhqwgads.

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

Apparently so since you're getting downvoted by all the Linux fan boys that show up to every Microsoft thread.

I've never personally used it and can't think of a good use case for it either.

skeeter_dave , 3 months ago

Ahh yes, it's the linux fan boys who are upset about a feature being removed in Windows.

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

Yeah but it sounded kind of like a positive comment about Windows. That's enough isn't it.?

VerseAndVermin , 3 months ago

Maybe here is a good place to ask. I have used Mint for months now on my non-gaming laptop. I like it. I was ready to move my gaming rig at months end. Then I read that it can have issues with multiple monitors at different refresh rates and also with Mouse acceleration. Is this true and is there a solution?

Granixo , 3 months ago

It's a case by case scenario.

If it works for you, then it's all good.

If it doesn't, then you might see the need for having a Linux PC and a Windows PC for different use cases.

cyberpunk007 , 3 months ago

My gaming rig has been on arch and manjaro for the past 6 years. No regrets. Sometimes games can be a pita to get working right, but proton/steam/valve have done an amazing job and it's better every day.

I have a 2.5k 34" uktawide and a 27" connected. No issues.

imecth , 3 months ago

X11 does not support different refresh rates across monitors.
You need a Wayland capable DE for that. The big one is Gnome.

Fal , 3 months ago

Don't use gnome especially with Wayland. Plasma > 5.27 has awesome Wayland integration. Try fedora tumbleweed

imecth , 3 months ago

That's such a weird comment considering gnome has been the on the forefront of wayland's implementation from the get-go and KDE's is still experimental.

julianh , 3 months ago

Monitors at different refresh rates is a downside of x11, which Mint uses for all its desktop environments. Fortunately, they're working on moving to Wayland for the Cinnamon edition, which has better support for that. There's an experimental version you can use now, and they plan to be done in 2026.

I'd test things first ofc, maybe with your laptop plugged into one of the monitors.

gregorum , 3 months ago

For 20 years, now, my only contact with WinBlows is the rare occasion i dual-boot into it to play a game. If I actually had to use it?

[shudders]

Caligvla , 3 months ago

... You guys might shit on it, but that's incredibly smart on their part. Ten years or more of that button being there and now suddenly something else replaces it, just imagine the amount of people accidentally hitting the button and being introduced to copilot. This was a very deliberate change.

BarrierWithAshes , 3 months ago

I'm pretty sure there's a term for it. Google did it with shopping and images, Instagram changed the home button with some advertising thing (dont remember the exact details).

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

Phishing?

lemmyvore , 3 months ago

Dark pattern.

RobotToaster , 3 months ago

Dark patterns

BarrierWithAshes , 3 months ago

Better than whatever i wouldve come up with lol.

Granixo , 3 months ago

Shadow Patterns!

SlopppyEngineer , 3 months ago

I was thinking enshittification

ech , 3 months ago

Nobody said it wasn't deliberate. It's still shitty af.

eskimofry , 3 months ago

It's Smart as in, MLM scheme smart. Not honorable, just smart. Like a thief that is clever about not leaving fingerprints.

cyberpunk007 , 3 months ago

That's why there are 3 of them now. One there and two in the corners of the start menu popup

SlopppyEngineer , 3 months ago

And the thing failed the things I asked it to do so far. It's not very helpful with actually getting things done.

Allero , 3 months ago

That's exactly why we shit on it

MonkderZweite , 3 months ago

Dark pattern smart.

Mango , 3 months ago

If being an asshole is smart, I'd rather be dumb.

people_are_cute , 3 months ago

This being "smart" is entirely based on the assumption that the average user who's actually trying to just get to their home screen won't be pissed when the bloated chatbot pops up instead. And that assumption is wrong.

ElcaineVolta , 3 months ago

just switched to Linux for the first time this week!

Rustmilian , 3 months ago

I'll happily help you if needed. Hmu.

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

This is the problem with Linux. People that know how to use a PC and are not tech illiterate still can't use it very well. Just the fact that you offered means you know they are probably having some issues.

JCreazy , 3 months ago

I know how to use a PC and I am tech literate and I can use Linux just fine so I don't get what your point is.

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

There a reason memes like this exist.

JCreazy , 3 months ago

And those memes are hilarious

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

I've never claimed otherwise. I enjoy a good meme.

The_v , 3 months ago

I have used Linux off and on for almost 20 years.

I install it, see if I can do everything I want.

Get lost in terminal hell.

Give up and uninstall it.

Until I can browse to a webpage, download a program and click on an icon and have it install and work, the OS is shit for the general user. It's not that fucking difficult of a concept.

JCreazy , 3 months ago

You're right. It's not that difficult of a concept and luckily Linux works just like that. I will admit that Linux wasn't always user friendly but it's made leaps and bounds in that department. A bit less than a year ago, I decided one day to wipe my SSD completely and install Linux and I've been using it ever since. I'm doing everything I was doing for. Obviously this is going to depend on your specific needs but for me it's been just fine.

The_v , 3 months ago

No it doesn't.

My last attempt was six months ago. Still had a few key programs in a tarball. Dow

Then there's always the random hardware incompatibility. This last attempt it decided to flip the screen upside down on my laptop screen. Fun times...

It's come a long way, but for the average user, it's not anywhere near polished enough.

RmDebArc_5 , 3 months ago

What kind of software do you use? I have never needed to install a tarball. Flipping the screen upside down seems like a very easily fixable problem compared to some of the stuff windows throws at you

JCreazy , 3 months ago

I'm curious what distros you have tried.

julianh , 3 months ago

I mean, for most distros you should be about to install and use the OS without touching the terminal. Yeah, you may want to use it for some things (idk what you were trying to do) but it's kind of the same thing in Windows with registry edits and such. It's a tool and if you don't know how to use it, you're probably gonna get lost.

Also how is it easier to go to a webpage to download an installer instead of using a store? Even microsoft is trying to move in that direction.

I don't want to say your experience is invalid because I definitely think Linux can improve in terms of user experience. But it's not very helpful to just complain about stuff vaguely.

Cethin , 3 months ago

The issue you're having is it sounds like you don't understand package managers. On your phone you go through the Play store or Apple store, and they manage your apps and keep them updated. It's the same for Linux. You download and install things through the package manager (using the terminal or through the Discover application, assuming your distro has that). On Windows you go to a website and download an application, and that application has to keep track of updating itself. It has to check online for updates every time it launches and then ask you to download and install it then. Package managers are much more convenient. It may take a minute to get used to, but it's better once you do.

refurbishedrefurbisher , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

Yeah. People new to computers in general have an easier time using Linux than Windows power users, because the latter expects the same experience as Windows when they are using an entirely different OS.

Then, when something Windows-esque doesn't work (like downloading software from a website), they blame Linux instead of their method.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

This is the problem with Windows. People that know how to use a PC and are not tech illiterate still can’t use it very well.

The_v , 3 months ago

That's not a problem with windows it's a feature. Even the barely tech literate people can use it to bumble their way through to get the job done, eventually.

They don't use it well but they still use it. They also rarely break it anymore.

Those of us who worked with these people with win 98 and XP... Shudder. They ways they screwed up the system was truly remarkable at times.

hightrix , 3 months ago

I’m extremely technically literate, build my own PCs and write my own software tools.

I don’t use Linux at home because I don’t want to fiddle. I want to sit down, open steam, and play a game.

I use Linux for many things, but my personal computer uses windows because it just works all the time.

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

I'm sorry all of the Linux fan boys don't like your comment. My main is Windows and my other PC is a Linux box.

hightrix , 3 months ago

This place is a massive echo chamber. Votes don’t matter

The_v , 3 months ago

Pointing out significant flaws that are holding the systems adoption rate back is never popular. Most of them are very techy and don't have a clue what the average user needs. It's a great way to get them all riled up.

I spent a few years as a process flow and bug finder for some programmers building a proprietary internal system. Then I trained non-tech savvy people on how to use the system. One of the most difficult jobs I have ever done. Bridging the gap between the two of them was brutal.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago

I want to sit down, open steam, and play a game.

bruh

macattack , 3 months ago

There are dozens of us, dozens!

Liz , 3 months ago

Twitter sent me to Mastodon. Reddit sent me to Lemmy. Windows has sent me to Linux. These things are basically promoting the better versions of themselves by becoming shittier versions of themselves.

puppy , 3 months ago

Same here. But I had always been on Linux since I was a kid because Ubuntu (Gnome 2 days) was very pretty compared to Windows XP to me.

Artyom , 3 months ago

One of us! One of us! One of us!

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

How much searching did you have to do? Be honest. Ever try to mount a network share permanently yet?

Rustmilian , 3 months ago

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

I didn't realize that was in every distro

Rustmilian , 3 months ago

It will be once I infiltrate all 9billion distros.

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

Gogogo

Fal , 3 months ago

Literally every distro has dolphin in the repos

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

I was like wait they aren't all already installed by default, then I realized you confirmed it.

Fal , 3 months ago

It's not automatically installed on gnome, because gnome sucks. But any KDE distro will have it, and any distro ever will have it in the repos

Allero , 3 months ago

As someone on Manjaro for over a year, I did have a few searches, but they were rare and mostly related to obscure things I needed.

Not even close to the "search a fix every 10 minutes" experience I was promised.

puppy , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

No searching at all. I got a new computer last month.

1. Install open-ssh server on the old computer
2. Copy the IP address of the old computer
3. Paste it into Dolphin
4. Copy paste everything

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

And how would a new user know to find this specific app in the repo? Have you ever actually searched "how to permanently mount a network dive in Linux"? I didn't see a single one saying dolphin.

puppy , 3 months ago

I don't know how to mount a network drive in Windows. So what's your point?

btw I just searched how to do it in KDE. First result is a Reddit thread explaining how to do it in Dolphin.

subtext , 3 months ago

I did, and it was fairly straightforward according to the documentation I found. This was a couple of years ago but I’m pretty sure I needed to figure out how to use nano, then type some magic words into fstab along with the IP and password, and I haven’t had to mess with it ever since.

Shade , 3 months ago

More to the penguin army! Welcome

Kongar , 3 months ago

It’s too bad that the year of the linux desktop has been so long in the coming. Because now, it really is far superior to windows. Bluetooth, printers, and games even “just work” these days.

/shrug

Swarfega , 3 months ago

Not all games just work. For sure though Proton is absolutely amazing. The only thing stopping me ditching Windows completely is my kid still plays Roblox which doesn't work on Linux.

Tippon , 3 months ago

Apparently they've fixed the Grapefruit launcher so that it works again. I haven't tried it yet though, because it's Roblox, and I can't stand it.

TheIllustrativeMan , 3 months ago

It's funny because if Linux was where it is now, 10ish years ago, I probably would have stuck with it. All I cared about then was basic computering and gaming, both of which are well handled at this point.

Problem is now I've spent a decade honing my skills on specialized programs that don't have good replacements, and realistically even if they did, compatibility and years of learning specific programs have locked me in to Windows.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

I must admit, "Linux becomes the refuge of luddites" was never on any bingo card I could have conceived of for 202X.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago

The Luddites of Linux are one's desperately trying to convince people that Xorg is perfectly flawless and that Wayland is vaporware.

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

Why would people you call luddites even care about your opinion really?

Come back with your Wayland ad when there's something like CWM or FVWM for it.

It's simply functionally inferior now. Calling people luddites won't change that.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

Why would people you call luddites even care about your opinion really?

Literally, YOU right now.
Also, this is the linux community; everyone has an opinion on everyone else's opinion.

Come back with your Wayland ad when there's something like CWM or FVWM for it.

LabWC, Enlightenment, Wayfire, Weston, Sway, Hyperland, Vivarium, DWL, Velox, etc.

It's simply functionally inferior now.

It's functionally superior in many ways, and here's the real kicker, its actually maintainable and expandable.
Xorg HDR when? How many decades and still don't have HDR? LMAO.
I'm done waiting for Xorg to improve and implement features that simply will never be.

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble , 3 months ago

Just fyi this isn’t the Linux community. It’s just “technology”.

Granted on lemmy it’s basically just one big Linux community.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago

Didn't even realize lmao.

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

Literally, YOU right now.

I'm improving the community by answering demonstrably stupid opinions. So I don't care about you in particular.

Sway, Hyperland, Vivarium, DWL, Velox, etc.

Wrong.

Xorg HDR when? How many decades and still don’t have HDR? LMAO.

I don't use HDR and I don't care. Just like you don't care about what I use.

its actually maintainable and expandable.

Yes, I'm sure somewhere 10 years after I'll use it after it's been finally expanded to something usable.

I’m done waiting for Xorg to improve and implement features that simply will never be.

Too bad

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

I’m improving the community by answering demonstrably stupid opinions

You answer you're own opinions? funny.

Wrong

CWM : stacking window manger
LabWC, Enlightenment, Wayfire, Weston, and Sway, etc.

FVWM : Tab Window Manager
DWL, Hyprland, Sway again, etc.

You're factually disproven.

I don’t use HDR and I don’t care...
I’m sure somewhere 10 years after...

Luddite : one who is opposed to technological change.
Thanks for proving my point. For further discussion you can TELNET me @ www.megaboomerenergy.com::80

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

This is incomprehensible, you are arguing not having seen once what you are arguing about.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

If you want a 1:1 equivalent WM, then you'll just have to build it yourself scrub.
The WMs I listed can already do everything CWM & FVWM can, then some.

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

The WMs I listed can already do everything CWM & FVWM can, then some.

I can send you my FVWM config and hear how are you going to achieve that.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

First I'd start with either DWL, Hyprland, or possibly Sway, then read the documentation re-creating everything as close as possible. (⁠◠⁠‿⁠◕⁠)
All the features are there, just glue it yourself. Just the same way you'd convert those same configs to an i3 & DWM equivalent.
If you can't deal with that and want a 1:1 WM, then you'll just have to build it yourself or convince one of the other 3 people who still use FVWM to do it.

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

with either DWL, Hyprland, or possibly Sway,

Do these things allow me to define functions and to call them on focus change, on windowshade, on iconification, on other events? Can I evaluate text returned by a command spawned in those as part of my config, at any moment? Can these functions differentiate between windows by mask? By state? BTW, can I have custom states? Can I have conditionals there? Schedule those functions? Change that schedule?

Just the same way you’d convert those same configs to an i3 & DWM equivalent.

I wouldn't. These are different things for a different workflow.

All the features are there

Where there?

I know you are not an adult.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

Do these things allow me to define functions and to call them on focus change, on windowshade, on iconification, on other events? Can I evaluate text returned by a command spawned in those as part of my config, at any moment? Can these functions differentiate between windows by mask? By state? BTW, can I have custom states? Can I have conditionals there? Schedule those functions? Change that schedule?

Yes.

I wouldn't. These are different things for a different workflow.

And nobody cares about your workflow, sorry. Go convince one of 3 other people to make your 1:1 equivalent.

Where there?

Consult the official documentation and community configs, etc. It not that fuckin hard dude.

I know you are not an adult.

You're the one who immediately started name calling trying to "correct" me with incorrect nonsense in a different thread, dumbass. Not to mention, "luddite" wasn't even directed at you personally, you applied it to yourself.

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

Yes

OK, that's my config: https://pastebin.com/AFLe2x8N (messy, but not too much). Until you replicate it for something under Wayland, I don't care.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

Do it yourself whiner, I'm not going to convert your 555ln of crap into an equivalent config with all the equivalent necessary add-ons and plug-ins for you. Go ask ChatGPT because an AI is the only thing that'll be able to stand you. You can stay with your abandonware for all eternity for all I care, I'm busy doing things that are much more productive then wasting my time helping an ungrateful egomaniac (e.g. literally anything else).

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

So you won't, then fuck off

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

Never said I would, nor do you even deserve such kindness. I'm not about to spend 3+ hours building and fine tweaking a config for an asshole that publicly goatees itself on the internet.
If you're lazy, don't be a little shit too. choosing beggars get nowhere.

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

Just fuck off. You had your chance to support all the bullshit you've said, you haven't. Now you are a little bitch whining for attention

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

"Now you are a little bitch whining for attention. I- I'm not projecting, I'm not projecting, I I'm not ༼⁠;⁠´⁠༎ຶ⁠ ⁠۝ ⁠༎ຶ⁠༽"

eskimofry , 3 months ago

A luddite should ideally not involve in Display Server wars

mriormro , 3 months ago

You people are fucking crazy and will literally find anything to fight about. Normal users don't care about this sort of shit and it's the thing that turns people completely off when they inevitably run into a problem with Linux.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

inevitably run into a problem with Linux

This has nothing to do with any of kind of Linux problem.
It's just Luddites crying because Linux is moving on from outdated flawed software that has a bunch of unfixable problems.
Same shit happens with windows, my guy. "WHAAAAAAAA MY WINDOWS XP/98 WHAAAAAA", at least it's often partially valid for windows...
Luddites are not exclusive to any particular OS.

If someone is having a Linux issue, they just need to ask. Literally just ask me, or the vast major of other users, we'll literally provide better tech support than Windows will ever have.

Kyatto , 3 months ago

yeah I've seen the windows support forums, every official response either misses the point of the question or the answer is straight up wrong.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

What gets me is the replies like "just wipe it & reinstall the whole thing".
Yeah right, like I'mma spend an entire hour wiping, reformatting and reinstalling Windows, then varying additional time reconfiguring everything for a problem that likely has an extremely simple solution but they're too lazy to gather the necessary information to actually solve it.
Assuming that the Windows installer doesn't fuck up and I have to restart the install process again, which has happened to me several times.
At least Linux takes 5-10m tops to install for the user friendly distros.
Even I, a Linux user who's spent hours upon days debugging kernel issues for my hardware can see how fuckin stupid that shit copout advice is.

Harbinger01173430 , 3 months ago

Yeah, I don't know why they devolve back to tribalism. I just installed the thing and the programs I had to use and just...kept using it since I didn't want to pirate windows xd. No need to shout to others what's my favorite fake non Unix distro or anything.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

This is not tribalism.
This is people crying because Windows moved from 95 to 98 for comparison.

Xorg has a plethora of unfixable issues, and people are mad that we can't & don't want to stick to it for all eternity, crippling the hell out of Linux growth & innovation.

Harbinger01173430 , 3 months ago

I just hope they get rid of the ancient stuff to make the neckbeards seethe xd

ekky , 3 months ago

Huh? Isn't this about Microsoft changing out a button with a well established use, in order to take advantage of muscle memory and the unobservant?

Don't think it's much to do with people opposing technological advancement, but rather with opposing another company wanting to making a fool of them.

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

This is just another gripe about how Microsoft is putting AI into everything. If it's really just about the position of a button (which apparently can be changed in the settings if you still want it there) it's even more petty. Certainly not worth posting about on a general technology community.

StarPupil , 3 months ago

I work in IT, and every time I do an install (sometimes new computers, sometimes not) for someone I see Microsoft's little News widget they put on the Taskbar, the one that pops up a huge window if you mouse over it. Every time I see that, I ask the person if they ever use it, and they always say no. Then I ask them if they want it gone, and they always say yes, usually with some kind of relief. It's a matter of two clicks to do it, easier than going into the settings menu like your screenshot, but every computer I haven't been on previously has it. Now, I'd wonder why Microsoft would put something on the Taskbar that is, in my experience, universally disliked. To me it reeks of the pathetic, groveling, "I'll suck your dick" energy they have when someone installs Chrome.

Windows 10 changed a lot over the course of its lifetime, and while some feature are good, like Dark Mode, they're mostly useless or downright bad. So putting something that most people will never use and will greatly confuse and annoy the average user in a place that has been dedicated to a single function for at the very least Windows 10's entire lifetime (I think it's there in 8 and maybe 7 also) for seemingly no reason other than to fuck with people's muscle memory is just one more move very worthy of griping about, no matter how easy it is for users to turn off. Because 99% of users just won't, because they aren't confident enough to go futzing around in the settings. But they'll still get whatever god awful popup this button shows every time they try to show desktop like they've been doing for over a decade. It's yet another change that nobody asked for, nobody will use, and that the user will have to remember that it's different now for no reason.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago

More over being a luddite on Linux is like a fish trying to breathe in a public swimming pool; it works until the chlorine poisoning sets in.
Linux adopts new technology constantly.

BarrierWithAshes , 3 months ago

Ehn, one can survive pretty long with a stable distro.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

Yes, but eventually that LTS goes EOL and you'll have to move from that abandonware.

Granixo , 3 months ago

Ubuntu LTS versions can last 10-12 years before EOL.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

Yes, 10-12y to swim, slowly in-taking chlorine overtime...
Then when you do finally switch, you find yourself in a similar yet vastly different swimming pool and the cycle starts over.
Imagine when eventually the LTS goes Wayland only and Luddites go : "I'mma just stay with my abandonware forever."
Luddites hate adapting to new technology as a character trait, it's what makes them a Luddite.
Luddites will often choose to deal with decrepit, vulnerable, abandonware then change to something new because they don't want to spend a week learning new "muscle memory".

Hubi , 3 months ago

The difference is that Linux generally adopts new technology because it enhances the user experience in some way, and not because it maximizes ad revenue and telemetry.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago

Very true.

RobotToaster , 3 months ago

"And the lord said unto John, come forth and install gentoo."

tsonfeir , 3 months ago

It would mean corporate software support. And while you might still choose FOSS, it means money pouring into Linux—which is always a good thing.

aeronmelon , 3 months ago

If Linux Luddites could TELNET into Lemmy, they would be very angry with you!

noodlejetski , 3 months ago

friendly reminder that https://theconversation.com/im-a-luddite-you-should-be-one-too-163172

FaceDeer , 3 months ago

That article attempts to paint Luddism in a positive light and then tries to redefine the term to mean something very for "neo-Luddites" anyway. I don't find it particularly compelling or well reasoned.

radamant , 3 months ago

What do you mean? Vocal parts of Linux community is about 80% luddites

otter , 3 months ago

I guess they figured out where people clicked a lot and put the button there?

Looking forward to the Google search trends for "disable copilot"

Chozo , 3 months ago

Just don't search that if you've also been searching for any flights recently.

jmd_akbar , 3 months ago

Suddenly... WATCHLIST

🤣

BearOfaTime , 3 months ago

Or where people didn't click a lot.

Could go either way - I could see MS doing this because people use this a lot.

Only time I've ever used it was the first time I installed a version with it (7?).

Win-D is far faster, or a simple Alt-Tab, which I've used for what, 30 years now?

otter , 3 months ago

I have files download / export to desktop pretty often since I use it as a visual workspace (I can drag things around freely), and I got used to hitting that button. Since it's in the corner, it was easy to throw the mouse down there, similar to the X in the top right

I could get used to the keyboard shortcut though, especially because that one is reversible

BearOfaTime , 3 months ago

I always liked the idea of the desktop, it's just never been useful for me (and I've tried, since Norton Desktop in 1992).

Mine just becomes a cluttered, illegible mess. Probably because I find icons messy and confusing. Lists make sense to me, icons and graphics just seem like wasted space.

I suppose if I could have folder views on my desktop that could work.

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

What was there before? I don't remember ever needing to click in that area. I did notice the new icon but as far as I knew it just moved the clock over.

MacNCheezus , 3 months ago

Right click on taskbar -> Taskbar settings. Toggle button to turn off Copilot is right there.

Lucidlethargy , 3 months ago

Hey HEY! Stop going so fast. This is why we all need to switch to Linux RIGHT HERE. We can't all be expected to understand these complicated terms.

Okay... I've cleared my schedule today and I'm ready. So, how does one "right click"?

Squizzy , 3 months ago

Is this just a new Cortana?

bigMouthCommie , 3 months ago

more internet and less integration

BarrierWithAshes , 3 months ago

More like evil clippy.

BearOfaTime , 3 months ago

Haha, dammit, you win - Evil Clippy it is!!

RobotToaster , 3 months ago

If they gave it a clippy persona I would actually use it tbh.

BarrierWithAshes , 3 months ago

There's a vscode extension that brings clippy back powered by chatgpt but idk. Its just not the same...

nevernevermore , 3 months ago

yeah i liked him bettter when the extent of his mental process was "everybody must be writing letters at all times, I must help them"

Granixo , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

If Clippy had a face i would punch it.

dylanTheDeveloper , 3 months ago

Its Halo5 Cortana

DarkNightoftheSoul , 3 months ago

so.... where's the hide button?

bigMouthCommie , 3 months ago

win+d

DarkNightoftheSoul , 3 months ago

thats like an extra button tho

bigMouthCommie , 3 months ago

I never grab a mouse unless I need to

DarkNightoftheSoul , 3 months ago

thats probably cool if youre some kinda like, prison hacker or something, im just a basic bitch who clicks on stuff what can i say

edit: also I popped my win key out cuz i kept hitting it instead of alt in games

bigMouthCommie , 3 months ago

I find it very satisfying to look my boss in the eye as I hide everything.

DarkNightoftheSoul , 3 months ago

that does sound satisfying lmfao

Rustmilian , 3 months ago

If you ever become a Linux user, then you already know to stay away from WMs.

DarkNightoftheSoul , 3 months ago

For some reason, I've actually been thinking about that a lot since I joined lemmy. Weird coincidence, that.

What's WMs?

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

As a hyper simplistic explanation :
Window Managers (WMs) are essentially keyboard centric highly stripped down and highly customizable Desktop Environments in a way. This isn't completely correct, but for the sake of simplicity it'll do.

I can give you a much more technical explanation if you want.

DarkNightoftheSoul , 3 months ago

I'm not in the mood to read something super technical right now- But actually y'know what, I will be tomorrow. Hit me with that shit or if it's as much as you seem to be implying, make a post and link me in.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

It's not overly technical, just has more nuance :

A Window Manager is a type of compositor or X client (depending on if it's based on Wayland or Xorg respectively) that manages the placement and appearance of windows on the screen.
It is responsible for the appearance and behavior of windows, determining the border, title bar, size, and ability to resize windows, and often providing other functionality such as reserved areas for sticking dock-apps or the ability to tab windows.
It can be part of a Desktop Environment(DE) or be used standalone.
Often times when WMs are referenced it's in reference to standalone WMs which are often keyboard centric and come in various different forms. For example tabbed, tiling, dynamic, stacking, dynamic tiling, etc.

Some popular Xorg based WM in Linux include i3, BSPWM, DWM, Awesome, Fluxbox, Openbox, WMii, Xmonad, etc.
Some popular Wayland based WM including Sway, Hyprland, River, DWL, NeWM, etc.
Then there's WMs built-in to Desktop Environments like Kwin(KDE Plasma) and Mutter(Gnome).

If you're interested there's an Arch Wiki with even more info.

DarkNightoftheSoul , 3 months ago

I'mma come back to this, but for now, I'm definitely ready to make the switch to linux. Fuck microsoft.

I've used ubuntu in the past on and off back in high school, but it never really stuck. Didn't get the point, couldn't play games, disk space overhead that I could use for ut2004 instead, that kinda thing. Now I get the point and I almost don't play games anymore (though I hear linux is much a more mature gaming system now, figures) and I'd like to try again, but I doubt the least common denominator ubuntu is the right choice. Which instances/communities are going to be the best for a beginner? I'm going to need help with a lot of stuff, I remember trying to install network drivers was a pain in my ass, using the command line and remembering commands and operators and that sort of thing, the filesystem and filetypes were unfamiliar and confusing for that reason, just a lot of things. Where do I start?

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

Kinda figured you wouldn't want to be hit with a wall of text... lol 🫣

couldn’t play games... I almost don’t play games anymore...

We have Valve Proton now, that while not-perfect works most of the time. Wikipedia has an excerpt on it. You can use this guide to enable it in steam.

...but I doubt the least common denominator ubuntu is the right choice...

It could be, but often something like Linux Mint or ZorinOS can be a better fit. It depends on you're use-case.

Which instances/communities are going to be the best for a beginner? I’m going to need help with a lot of stuff...

I'm not too sure, I'm not really a beginner anymore... but !linux is open to questions, I've personally been answering questions there too. There's also !linuxquestions & !linux.
You can always hmu.

I remember trying to install network drivers was a pain in my ass

Generally there already included in the kernel. If not, it can be a pain.
A clever work around I came up with is to use USB tethering with your phone to share WiFi which works 99% of the time, then from there you can add the drivers more easily.

using the command line

Not too hard to learn, unless you're writing scripts you don't need to know that much.
You can use man command, command -h or tealdeer for help pages.
You can watch this 100s video for a real quick overview of bash, and this 20m video for a full quick and easy Terminal/Bash beginner tutorial.
The vast majority of this is transferable to other shells like Zsh.

operators

Ampersand Operator (&): Runs a Linux command in the background.
Semi-Colon Operator (;): Runs multiple commands.
AND Operator (&&): Runs the second command only if the first command succeeds.
OR Operator (||): Conditionally executes the second command.
Cheatsheet for more.

the filesystem and filetypes were unfamiliar and confusing for that reason

man file-hierarchy 😜
There's not much different for filetypes, I mean Linux uses a combo of mimetype/magic numbers and file extensions e.g. image".example" for identifying filetype.
I guess maybe you're confused about shell scripts.sh, binary.bin filetypes? those are executables like .exe.
If you have a specific question, that'd be easier to answer.

Where do I start?

Probably Ventoy to make distro hopping easier. Here's a good video on it from a great YT'r. Just use use the live environment to mess around and see which one you like/works best for you.

DarkNightoftheSoul , 3 months ago

What confused me at the time was that my files weren't necessarily compatible between systems. Something about fat32 or something? I dont remember too well. It was over a decade ago.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

I think I understand, you mean like mounting an external hard drive in a different filesystem format not working?
In any case just hmu if you have any trouble.

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

A window manager, and you are usually using one and can't "stay away" from it, that person just doesn't know what they're blabbering. What they are trying to say is that choosing a window manager may lead you to trying some unusual workflow.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago

usually using one and can't "stay away" from it.

I have a TTY that says otherwise.

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

usually

a word too hard for you

Rustmilian , 3 months ago

Social cues are hard for you, so you don't get to speak on "word difficulty", bud.

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

My social cue for you here is that I am not socializing with ignorami.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

ignoramus* dumbass.

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

"Ignoramus" is singular and "ignorami" is plural, so "ignoramus" is, for example, you, not knowing that, and "ignorami" are, for example, you and the person who upvoted your comment.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago

No no no, you got it wrong, all those words describe you, & your tiny dick energy, dumbass.
Also, ignoramuses would be more accurate as the root of the word is a Latin verb.

Sanctus , 3 months ago

You are completely free to have no wm and run programs in the terminal.

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

usually

a word too hard for you

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

I actually have used (for fun and autism's sake) Linux with just VTs, running X for one GUI application at a time without a WM.

But I think you are just ignorant of there always being some program to manage your windows called window manager, while using X.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

while using X

Wayland... exists too...

Also... can you please... maybe.... Kindly...
REMOVE THE STICK FROM YOUR ASS.

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

While under Wayland there are no window managers at all, it's an X concept, could you please kindly realize that you've already licked that stick?

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

Wayland there are no window managers

It's called a compositor, dumbass. https://swaywm.org
Nah, now you're not allowed to remove the stick, push it deeper in...

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

Go play somewhere else

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

Go get some bitches.

I find it fucking hilarious how you try to correct people in the most abrasive way possible while not actually knowing jack shit on the topic.

rottingleaf , 3 months ago

Whatever, go away

Rustmilian , 3 months ago

Ok.

kelvie , 3 months ago

I think you're confusing a window manager with a tiling window manager.

Rustmilian , 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

https://lemmy.world/comment/7623515

NewNewAccount , 3 months ago

There’s no longer a mouse shortcut?

Kbobabob , 3 months ago

Taskbar settings.