"Hardly anything is evil, but most things are hungry. Hunger looks very much like evil from the wrong end of the cutlery. Or do you think your bacon sandwich loves you back?"
This might be a news flash, but food is a need. Not only that, but food and diets are formed during young ages and food networks take lifetimes to build.
Even in your perfect little world, if everybody ate vegan right now, we would eventually hit a point where somebody is eating meat.
So yes, unless you have secretly set up vegan food distribution networks to the entire planet overnight without everybody knowing, a bacon sandwich becomes a necessity somewhere.
Are you unaware of how markets work? You're pretending like the person you're responding to is the arbiter of all food production and consumption. Buy vegan, more vegan food gets made. It's been happening for decades and as the number of vegans climb, the amount of vegan food increases.
There's really nothing difficult to understand about that. If SO MANY PEOPLE go vegan that you literally go to the store and can't find ANY vegan food (this won't happen), then vegan food production will ramp up extremely fast, and this will only be a temporary issue as producers acclimate to new demands.
An even greater portion is distributed as animal feed. In fact, 1/3 of crop production is fed to livestock at about a 10:1 calorie conversion. The land and resources exist, it's just a matter of people realizing that animal products aren't a necessity for much of the world. I also don't recall anyone saying this change would have to occur immediately, it would obviously be a gradual transition.
All I'm hearing is you say, "unless we can do this in an instant it's not possible"
There's already a vegan food distribution network lol, part of the food distribution network.
You seem hostile to the simple idea of change for a greater level of humanity. Why?
My point was that a bacon sandwich in particular is not a food need that's hard to replace nutritionally by existing foods. People eat it because it's super tasty. I would bet there is a very small percentage of total bacon eaten in the world that is eaten out of necessity (impoverished family eating their raised livestock).
It's a bad faith argument to make the assumption that I think the change should happen overnight instantly. And it's simply a bad argument that someone somewhere would have to eat meat eventually. It takes a LOT of crop farming to provide sustainance for the meat industry.
Arguments on purity bore me, one way or the other.
Less ecological impact is better than more ecological impact.
Less suffering is better than more suffering.
Cheaper food is better than more expensive food.
Somewhat healthy diet is better than a diet Lancet is warning you about (ie: too much meat, especially red meat)
Using less resources to feed more people is better than using more resources to feed fewer.
Every step from a modern western diet with way too much meat (the one Lancet warns about) to something more reasonable brings benefit basically in relation to how much meat you cut. You can argue that we can't reach the absolute, but it strictly does not matter. If you try to reduce meat and succeed as much as you reasonably can, things improve. You don't have to be a part of this, but surely you realize this is the case?
I dont got one but most wars have been religiouse in nature but ur right ww1/2 might skew that a little simply due to larger populations being sacrified. But then again there has been thousands of years of religiouse wars throughout history someone shoudl do the analysis i recon it would be close.
Religion itself is much older then the abrahamic branches.
I am not sure if the romans or christians would even exist by means of the butterfly fly effect.
Of course, i am just dreaming about a hypothetical scenario but things like murder and theft were recognized as wrong very early on in the human timeline but genocide the neighbour clan and rape where not.
Murder and theft were always recognized as wrong when the people were doing it to each other - rulers always had different rules for what they are allowed to do, and preferred to promote the religions that solidified these privileges.
Exactly. Religions that survive and get promoted are the ones that can thrive in the society they are living in, and that generally requires fitting into the political world of that society.
Religions that criticize the powers that be either overthrow them then become complicit with the new leaders over time, or they get marginalized. Priests had to deal with kings, one way or another.
I'm short on the time to rabbit-hole into this (although the time period fadcinates me), but I'm fairly sure the Romans, after executing Christ and persecuting all of His crazy not-useful-to-Caesar "love thy neighbor" pacifists wherever they could be found, realized it's hard to eradicate something like faith.
So they worked on a way to adopt a palatable State-friendly version of the faith that says "Hey, you can still follow your God as long as you pledge yourself to Caesar. Patriotism is Godly!"
...and following that playbook is how we got the Vatican, and much later the US co-opted a bunch of humble God-fearing pacifists into thinking work for its own sake is worship, some people are more human than others, Jesus wants you to support The Troops(TM), and it's ok to compete with your neighbor and obsessively chase great riches.
This State-friendly-free-market Jesus propaganda is SO effective it's unreal. It all sounds like it makes sense as long as nobody actually opens a Bible and churches are reduced to self-help seminars with prayer sessions.
The Bible warns against taking oaths, has commandments against idolatry and putting others before God, and other State-unfriendly passages....and yet the US has convinced everyone it's a "Christian nation" while it coerces its children to "pledge allegiance" to....a flag.
That oath is expanded and further consequential to those who choose to become soldiers.
Jesus tells us to love our enemies. Obviously He's against murder and theft. He tells us to be truthful and not break our promises....but they're so ready to salute a country's fabric idol and promise to go kill whomever it points them toward.
This indeed creates quite a predicament for the soul.
Both rather typical christian things, you guys stole half your rituals from paganism while killing and torturing people was pretty en vogue with christians for quite some time.
Sure, there are neo-pagans that make rather fun festivals. I'm not in that scene but if you are in Europe and are interested I can look up some for you.
The ones that you have with your friends (that you have).
Dude, everyone on here is an internet dweller - if you have real social life, what the fuck are you doing here talking shit to an internet stranger. Who are you kidding?
All Nazi bucklers had the words "God mitt uns" on them.
And Hitler wrote plenty of times how he was a devout Christian in his diaries.
There is a reason why he started with gassing Jews and not black people or anyone else that was even further away from what he would consider the "Übermench"
"God mitt uns" was in use in Germany since 1701. Hitler only pretended to be a Christian for votes. Hitler also mass murdered people with mental disabilities. Anyone who wasn't "Ubermench" were people who weren't aryans. Plenty of Slavs were sent to Auschwitz, and even some French as well. Hitler's motivation for the Holocaust was far from Christianity. It was based in scientific atheistic eugenic ideas.
I'd make it purgatory-style, where you're stomped and ripped apart by farm animals you've eaten, and only then you get to heaven, have a cuppa tea with them and laugh about it.
I had this same conversation in the middle of nowhere with a farmer. And for just a moment, a hint of a second this massive bloke quietly said "do you really believe all those animals would be up there?"
I doubt I changed his mind overall but maybe gave him pause for thought.
Ahh like my pet chicken i had called shnitzel. For the record we didnt make him into a shnitzel that would have smothered the complex and deliciouse flavours of a home grown chicken.
In aus at least cats are pests that kill baby birds are single handedly responsible for putting hundreds of speicies on the endagered spieces list and have helped many go extinct so maybe a cat didnt hurt him maybe a cat just hurt the enviroment he loved.
Those billions of chickens wouldnt exist if it wasnt for humans WE ARE their evolutinary niche we are the very reason they exist. And well we aint making chickens extinct are we.
Hell yeah bro. The only reason those chickens get to live a grueling two months inside a hot, windowless shed caked in filth, barely able to stand because they've been bred to grow so large is because of us humans. You're welcome chickens.
What about those poor bacteria living in our assholes in a windowless gut caked in filth unable to stand is because co-evolution with humans your welcome shit eating bacteria.
Thanks, it is fun to play with language. I almost went for the more boring "maculate".
I find something comedic about a Germanesque mash of prefixes and suffixes. Maybe one day I'll stumble across a newfangled word that can live in the cupboard of our collective vocabulary.
Only if you neutered them very young. Removal of the testicles reduces the potential for odor and taint associated with male hormones in boars after puberty. If you didn't do this to your pet pig, you are going to regret it when you cook it.
Source: My mother ran the local 4H club. Kids shouldn't see live castrations of animals IMHO. Especially since they are mostly done without anesthesia. The squeals still haunt me.
I‘m happy to know every farmer I buy meat from, and also how they are kept and treated (way better than these requires). I could even pet or buy any animal I want from them. Further, I’m happy that my county‘s laws are as strict as they are.
I know locally sourced is much better for the environment, but when talking about empathy for the animals, I don't think getting to pet them before they die really cuts it.
More like part of the “solution”, created and upheld intentionally by the meat&dairy industry, incl. happy pictures of cows on an open field in the sunshine. I eat meat, but I would be stupid argue that vegans aren’t right. The suffering and cruelty we are causing animals (and the related pollution to the planet) is unacceptable.
Sounds fair. My parents made me look after some of our chickens from hatching then a couple months later there i was plucking the poor bastard. Gotta say it took a tremendouse amount of effort to raise and prepare that bird but my god did it tast so much better knowing all the love and effort that went into that animal.
Kids shouldn't see live castrations of animals IMHO
Not without reason, but my daughter has been helping me with lambing since she was like 5 years old. Part of that is putting castrator bands on and docking tails, it hasn't messed her up but just been a good lesson in responsibility and handling animals respectfully.
However lambs just bleat a couple times and lay down in the corner. Showing non-farm kids a bunch of squealing piglets out of nowhere is definitely going to traumatize them.
By the way a non-neutered boar sounds like a terrifying pet to me! I would hope any pet pigs are castrated for safety reasons alone.
Because on lemmy you can't have a reasonable discussion about meat eating without being brigaded by vegans that add little to the conversation besides meat cruel and meat pollution.
Mate here brought up a good example. I myself raise chickens for egg production (i also engage in less sustainable/ humane meat eating to be frank). Would be happy to have an intelligent conversation with someone besides the usual 3-4 arguments like 'battery chickens' which don't apply to my chooks are happy, have plenty of space, toys, food and protection.
So I agree it probably sucks for children to see it, but it sucks that the industry exists. Maybe we should all suffer through seeing where meat comes from.
(Just to be clear, I'm an occasional meat eater. I've seen all of this stuff, and after considering the this of meat and also the carbon effect, I have reduced my meat intake, but I'm not at zero yet. Hopefully some day. I just wanted to be clear I'm somewhat of a hypocrite so I'm not dishonest.)
Maybe if you understand why people react like that, you can be more than just frustrated about it.
Most people know that it's morally questionable to eat meat, but they do it so often they'd have to consider themself evil to accept that. The alternative is to just double down on it and exclaim that the non-meat eater is the baddie for pushing their beliefs on people.
You can notice it when you just subtly bring it up and the way people overreact.
Dont you friggin dare make eating meat a political thing. Trump is a fucking cunt but if hes the only one defending you right to eat meat hes gonna have a whole lot more support than he does now. What you just implied is its anti woke to eat meat. I want you to think about how you just compared thousands of years of human suffering for so many different areas to eating a friggin bird that doesnt recognise itself in a mirror.
Meat is becoming political whether you like it or not. This is how politics have historically worked, people aren't born conservative, they're born, things are normalized and go unquestioned until you're older and society changes enough.
In Europe there are (left-leaning) political parties entirely devoted to the cause of eliminating the animal holocaust.
People who are "left-leaning" in America say in 2010 as a 25 year old will be considered conservative in America in 2050 as a 65 year old, without their politics changing at all. They'll be pro-Israel, pro animal abuse, pro-capitalism, and complaining how "leftists have gone off the deep end" being against animal abuse, worker abuse, and Palestinian genocide.
You dare compare the deaths of 6million people to that of animals. In my country there are also parties devoted to stopping all "animal abuse" they almost got 2% of the vote last election (thats with a preferential voting system) just cos an idea exists in the market place of ideas juat cos its new doesnt mean it better. I dont support animal abuse but im gonna go home and have chicken shnitty tonigh becausd thats not abuse imo. Non capitalist ideas have existed for hundreds of years at this point there is yet to be a successsfull implementation its been tested its failed we have diaregarded the idea and stuck with what works (there are many problema i dont deny that but at least it works). Israel palestine is whats called a basketcase 2 nations trying to exterminate eachother i believe the common term for this is called war the victor will write history as though they where on a just cause doing what must be done disregarding objective reality did we really need to firebomb dresdon unfound hiroshima and nagasaki was that nessasary or war crimes history says nesaasary cos we won and we wrote history thats just how it is how its been for thousands of years its the evolutinary most benificial move it will continue.
I think its a very conservative viewpoint that peoples views dont change over time mine have mine will continue to i went hard left i went hard right both sides trying to tell me how to act how to think i came to a realisation that its all bullshit now i look at both sides and make up my own mind. You are clearly being told how to think by the left i bet you have never gone to the most depraved parts of the alt right and read what they say empathised with it understood it you canot possibly think u understand something unless u have understood both sides you are being told how to think not thinking for yourself. I get it you truely beleive that killing animals is equivilent to murder im guessing u have done neither of those things so you cannot understand either. Go watch a human beg for their life before getting shot then go watch a chicken get killed by a farmer that cares about their animals one he has raised and cared for, then tell me thats the same (im guessing u wont do either cos u are too soft, to unwilling, to brainwashed, to stuck in your ways to watch both sides and come to a conclusion yourself).
Holocaust was a word before the Jewish holocaust you twat. Yes, you support animal abuse in the only way that matters, financially. You're the same as people who pay to watch dogs fight or animal rapists.
What is happening to animals is definitionally a holocaust, it has nothing to do with the Jewish one.
Congrats on being a moderate lib, it shows. Have fun eating the tortured animal carcass, hope it makes you feel better. I'll go have some plants because I don't need to abuse animals to feel better about myself like fuckwit carnists.
Was a word yes it was actually used to describe large scale scale catastrophy often caused by fire (a remnent of its greek origins often used during sacrifises via fire). I finacially support the systematic production and slaughter of animals this is not supporting. Andd i do not suppor dog fighting or zoophillia. The word holocause has changed meaning due to the angry austrian that is the imagery i suspect you are trying to purposefully invoke.
Are you going to go try learn anything from the other sude of you politicsl divide or are u going to continue to hurl insults across the grand canion uve dug yourself so u dont have to challenge your own thinking? Not turtured humanly killed yes it does it prevents me being malnorished and becoming a total cunt. Again they aint being abused and yes i enjoy eating animals they are very delicouse. Are you saying im a fuckwit for being an omnivore as optimised and adapted to for by natural selection or because u think im a fuckwit who happens to enjoy eating meat?
I think ur over thinking it. Im pretty sure most people dont like being told what to do. I dont consider myself evil for earing meat why should i? I source most of my meat from responsible farmers most of whoms farms i have seen myself. Those animals live good happy lives then hop skip and a bolt to the head they end up in my freezer. You welcome to do as u wish as long as ur not stopping me from doing as i wish. If u tell someone they cant do something or are evil for doing something then of cause they are not going to be happy its called self determination.
I also don't like being told what to do. But I can also recognise that its an extremely childish response to say "well you asked me not to, so I'm going to do it more".
Its not childish according to game theory its the perfect responce a strong incentive not to repeat the activity. Its a u told me to do x cos u dont want x to happen i enjoy doing x im going to do x more now that u told me not to do x its an incentive to not tell people to not do x.
That's the dumbest application of game theory I've ever heard.
This example would only apply if there were a finite amount of animals shared between the two people only and there were no other factors at play other than eating and being hungry. Additionally let's assume the x is [eat animals]. This then defines the reason why people are telling you to not eat animals (the second x) as simply because "they don't like it". It shows you are missing the point entirely.
Don't pretend your "you don't like it so I'm going to do more of it" is anything more than "owning the annoying vegans who told me what to do".
Everything can be boiled down to wants and needs u dont need to not eat animals u want to not eat animals. There are a finite amount of animals and if there was infinite u run into an infinity paradox (its the equivilent to a trolly problem of 1 person per integer on track a and 1 person per even integer on track b doesnt matter where the trolly goes the same number of people die) hence if there was infinite u being vegan does literally nothing. I didnt say its the only reason just that its not childish to implement optimal game theory.
It not just owning the vegans (though it does do that effectivly) its mathematically assigning a cost for u for telling someone what to do.
You realize you only get told what to do by vegans because you hang out where they hang out. If you keep coming here and arguing with them, you probably are here because it serves your own needs somehow...
How is !comicstrips in any way associated with vegans. And yes i quite enjoy arguing in general your not special your just one of the many many groups of people i enjoy disagreeing with like u are entertaining ill give u that maybe on the same level as the extreme left or russian shill but at least ur not as dumb as the ccp supporters.
Funny how when it comes to veganism that everyone suddenly only eats the flesh pf animals they knew personally and that were cuddled to death. Do you ever order food made with animal products when eating out?
Good point, most people just justify it and don't really question the morality. But after being told, precisely how and why it is probably immoral, and that animals dont live peaceful lives at the happy factory, what do you do?
That's when coping mechanisms kick in.
I'm not even vegan, im just interested in the psychology of it all.
My cope is unga bunga monkey instincs and soy crap is expensive.
There is no god, morality is invented by humans, it's not punishable by law, therefore no consequences for my actions on me.
As for everything affected by my actions, keep it at a safe distance i guess? Just like you, don't rub it in my face because it makes me uncomfortable.
I think if we all seriously started analysing our actions as much as vegans want us to, we'd all hate ourselves for even existing.
But im too tired for this wannabe deep bullshit so ima go back to destroying the planed by having a server somewhere emit pollution so i can listen to muh monkey brain happy songs on youtube.
Yeah sometimes i wonder why i argue with these assholes then i come up with a line like "hop skip and a bolt to the head" and my little monkey brains goes hahahaha. I mean im trying not to think abt it too hard but the vegans might be right we arnt that different we kill our fellow humans with almost every action we take so in the end its the vegans who care so much about not harming animals that murder is illegal therefore its their fault there is any difference at all.
I feel like I'm somewhere in between. I wish I could eat less meat, and I try really hard to eat more green "ruffage", but also I'm simply not bougie enough to have a fridge constantly stocked with produce, nor the time to prepare it into something fulfilling before it goes bad, and I'm already struggling with keeping weight and muscle for my height and age.
I also refuse to eat substitutes that are "It's like a thing you ate, but instead it's molded flavored soy!"
Even still, industrial soy and palm oil farming have also been destroying the environment, by the way.
I'd be much more okay with respectfully eating something I hunted, that would feed my family for weeks or months, but I live in a bizarre place in the middle of the desert that by all rights shouldn't even exist.
So the cognitive dissonance is a source of stress, but I also would like to survive so......?
edit: y'all mofos are inhaling tardygrades as I type this. there's 40 million skin mites that live on your lower lip.
and you love the flavor. and if it wasn't blindingly obvious I'm fucking with you but yeah mmmm I'm Vegan* (*cept for the mites and spiders) too
aw you don't eat animals?
that's a lie.
You consumed 3 spiders last week while sleeping. God knows how many gnats and other bugs.
Stop acting all superior, the only thing you've got going for you is the certainty that you've eliminated mammals from your diet and are subsisting on bugs.
Damn, you're right, damn. Guess there's no real difference between trying to avoid causing suffering and still causing a little, and not trying to avoid it and causing a lot. No difference at all. Damn.
Sorry, it's just kind of identical to real comments that I've seen before about how we can't avoid running over insects when we drive and crap like that
First i love that u got downvoted for this lol friggin hilariouse.
Second you more right than u think most vegan diets rely on food with farming practices that rape the land so fucking hard. Its actually been calculated that a vegan diet kills more animals than a non vegan one but its insects getting killed by farmers with chemicals (usually nerve agents) but bugs arent cute and fluffy so nobody cares.
Pesticides or GMO are going to be used for agriculture either way (vegan/non vegan diets). regardless, your assertion that vegan diet kills more is specious conceptually and ridiculous in premise - just growing a chicken requires more energy than growing grains, legumes or fungus. If you have evidence post it, otherwise lol nah man.
downvotes were probably for the poor way I made a joke. I don't take it personally, admit it wasn't great humor. But you'll never get me to think Vegans are harming teh ec0sytM!!
All the vegans I know garden or farm themselves, and I get to ride on their experience with my own tomato, cucumber, peppers, and green beans, and I live in the city. We just planted our onion and zuchinni starters but I've never done these before so we'll see. It's amazing what you can produce in two raised beds.
The lowest estimate for land required per person per year i could find was 1,300 m^2/person/year thats a hell of a lot of land so I commend your efforts in growing your own food it a very rewarding proccess gives a better product and really does increase your satisfaction with it (something about dopamine for doing work and enjoying it or something blar blar science shit). But honestly your not really going to be making much of an impact with your efforts (thats no reason not to enjoy it as a hobby tho).
I aint vegan but growing ones own food whether that be livestock or plants a is rewarding experience.
Warning about tomatoes u want at least like 7 beds and rotate all ur crops each year as tomatoes get fungal problems that can persist in the soil for like 7 years, depending where u are the birds will learn where ya food is so u might need to net it at some point. Beans are piss easy its hard to fuck em up give em good support and ur set. Onions arent too hard just gotta be carefull with them while they still as starter stock endless effort watering seeds i just put a shitonne of seeds in a tray and water it everyday keep it inside in the sun till they start to croud then stick em out also u never have to buy onion stock just let one or ur onions go to seed and tomatoes just try some seeds form some on a paper towel. Also can i suggest corn its great fun (huge waste of space) and tastes infinitly better as the second its picked it starts converting sugars to starch.
Raise yourself some chickens give em a good life feed em well get verifyably good eggs hatch our own chickens then after u realise u cant give away that many roosters the greatest chicken you have ever had awaits chicken that is ethical cared for loved from start to neck twisting end. If ur not comfortable breaking its neck a chicken head sized funnel and a VERY sharp knife does the job the chaos afterwards is just nerves releasing chemicals as long as its quick its completely painless. And hell if u keep ur own chickens they gonna get old and sick and need a quick end opposed to forcing them to suffer on.
I find it funny that a single story locked behind a paywall on springer is TEH EVIDENCE yet such a huge finding isn't researched and documented elsewhere.
and again, the concept violates the laws of thermodynamics. it's an energy economy. I can get as much protein and nutrients from veg for a fraction of the energy input compared to livestock.
A meat based diet actually needs more farmland than a vegan diet, since it's less efficient to grow crops to feed animals to feed humans, than it is to grow crops that directly feed the humans. Animals don't just grow fat on their own, they need to be fed to get there.
Not all the food we grow for animals can be consuned for humans nor can the land support human food. Animals server a single perpose they are nutrient condensers they take grass as an input then hop skip and a bolt to the head later we have condensed caloreis into the form of meet.
The amount of meat eaters is multiple times that of vegans. And plenty of them throw in your face how much they love eating meat and sharing recipes. How about the whole Instagram food picture trend?
But because you agree with their philosophy, it doesn't feel "in your face" to you.
I've noticed this projection almost always, as well. In my experience vegans usually keep it to themselves, yet those who eat meat tend to latch onto veganism and keep going on about it.
I eat meat, no intention to quit at this moment, however I rarely hear about vegans irl. People who don't like veganism for some reason? I hear them all the time.
Lemmy works in mysterious ways, and there's plenty of offended {vegans, crossfitters, communists, fascists, whatever} to downvote or brigade. Which is even more useless than on Reddit, but everyone needs a hobby.
Its not mutually exclusive, these animals are relient on us to give them a good and happy life. From thousands of years of coevolution they have found an evolutinary niche and that niche is humman support class ie food. If we did not eat them and use them to build the very society we stand in today they would not exist. We love them we care for them we give them good lives then we eat them.
Are you implying that the mentally disabled dont contribute to society i believe a little angry Austrian man had that same idea.
And eating meat of a sick animal sounds quite unhygienic to me.
New proposal: if we start eating all of the people who eat animals starting with those who eat the most meat, we will reduce the planet's meat consumption quite rapidly.
If we start sending all the vegans to camps in poland starting with the most vocal we will reduce the planets quota of loud vegans. Wow who would have guessed killing a specific group of people will reduce the amount of people in that specific group. Again the angry austrian dickhead was working on that exact principle.
There are many studies that suggest having pet can increase health both physical and mental and is correlatory to longer life expectancy. Your dog is contributing to society through your actions so dont let em down.
