Yeah, exactly. Babies are too young for gender. It's child abuse to call any baby a boy or a girl. Gender starts developing in the brain at 2-3 years of age.
This is worst response. Others at least said "No, they are babies, they don't even know how to speak, how are they going to be able to know what "gender" even means?", but your "nobody knows she's a girl yet" is so wierd.
Why? A trans person isn't born cis, they're born, as you said, not even knowing what gender is. A trans woman was always a girl, but only someone who knows the future would know that when she's a baby.
His issue was phrasing. The woman used a euphemism which significantly shifted her perceived intentions. “Look at his little wee-wee” is far removed from “look at his little penis.” Synonyms are not created equal, so simply substituting without considering connotation will only cause confusion. He should have said “get an eyeful of her little vagina.”
I don't think I particularly want a pointy sounding word for vulva because I don't think of vulvas as pointy. I was just curious why you want a pointy word rather than a round one.
No word feels great which is pretty sad considering how many child-friendly euphemisms there are for a penis. With my daughter we try to emulate the same vibe as 'willy' combined with some anatomical accuracy by using the word 'vulvy'. Sounds gross to many, makes sense to others. Your mileage may vary haha.
I get a chuckle about Ultra sound images as well. It's fine if a woman wants to post those photos of her insides on the Internet. But I'm the bad guy if I say "Jessica pop that pussy open let's see it in person."
Nope that is not the argument that is being made here. The fact that men get breast cancer at such a low rate compared to women nullifies your comment.
Exactly. XY is not at all a hindrance to lactation. Because XY and XX nipples are the same. It's just hormones (usually while pregnant) that make them function.
But they arent tho. I am a trans woman who has been on estrogen for 4 months. In that time i have absolutely noticed my nipples changing, both growing and getting hard more regularly than before.
Ackchyually... that's completely wrong. Frighteningly so, I might add, where has basic education gone.
Ultrasound are mechanical waves, light is EM radiation. Really slow light is infrared. Really fast ultrasound is... even more ultra ultrasound. Slower ultrasound would be this.
This is my first thread I’m reading on Lemmy today and it’s full of AKSHUALLY people, and people who don’t understand basic humanity and society. I’m hoping it’s just limited to this thread.
Dark Arc is saying that it is generally considered a bad thing, contrary to the comic which is implying that it is generally considered good or neutral when it should be considered bad.
you guys missed the point. neither should be bad. it's only bad because of how we sexualize eveything. it's the sexualization that's bad, and honestly, that wouldn't even be that bad if it weren't for the patriarchal exploitation of sex.
Hmm, that's a good point, I was just clarifying what Dark Arc said as far as I can tell. You're right neither should be sexualized, but in the world we live in neither should be shared IMO.
Yeah, i mean in today's world, i value privacy too, but don't you wish you lived in a world where we were more in tune with the natural world and our natural selves?
I’m betting this same person you are arguing with is a vocal atheist who doesn’t realize religion is what imposed this shame upon our natural form, and probably that taboo contributes to the sexualization.
I haven’t been able to peg Lemmy down even after a year and this thread hasn’t helped. Lemmy is pro-freedom, acceptance, and FOSS, is literal to the point of absurdity, has a selectively activated superiority complex, and averages ~17 years old. Knowing all of that, I’m still endlessly befuddled. Any chance you’ve got the last puzzle piece?
There are many users over 30 but they are the minority. The clear absence of memory beyond what I’d personally describe as recent is pretty telling. I really have nothing tangible to back the assertion but it’s fairly apparent to me as a person of an age.
Stop sharing any photos of people who don't give consent, whether they can or not.
In an alternate timeline where we never had the stigma around nudity, I'd be just as embarrassed of my nose in a photo than I would of my penis.
Or maybe 10 years after I cut ties with you because you became a massive douche sandwich, I don't want my picture on the same Facebook wall as your white pride rally.
I think krippix’ point (as well as the comic’s point) is that the first is socially acceptable while the second is not. And that then suggests that the first scenario should also not be socially acceptable.
I don't think it really takes a side ... just kind of points out that it's super weird that it's more socially acceptable in one direction than the other.
I do hope the author intended for what I said to be the point though.
Situation also matters. This appears to be on a bus and between acquaintances. Do this same thing at home toward the adult child's significant other and it becomes a funny thing parents do to embarrass their kids.
Of course, you're technically very right - what they see is not vagina.
But in the culture, the word often simply refers to female genitals as a whole.
That doesn't mean anyone using that word is not aware of the words "labia" and "vulva", they can even differentiate between labia majora and labia minora etc.
But for the sake of brevity and simplicity, people just say "vagina", even if it's not necessarily a technically correct term.
It’s because men sexually assault women a lot. Like, an awful amount. Children, relatives, the whole thing: 1 out of 3 women have been sexually assaulted. That’s why it’s different.
As a male victim of TWO count 'em TWO sexual assaults perpetrated by TWO count em TWO different women, "fuck me, I don't matter."
You gonna bring up that I "obviously wanted it because I'm a man" next? Go ahead and block me for downvoting both that comment and yours, make my lemmy a better place.
Thanks for your important testimony. I have come to believe that your case in is an exception but I have no means of knowing this for sure and I apologize for being triggering.
My case isn't an exception, it happens more frequently then you'd like to believe and is seldom reported to another human much less law enforcement because men get laughed out of police stations and made fun of by friends. All the worse if the woman is conventionally attractive. In many localities the legal definition of rape is even phrased as "requiring penetration," meaning in many areas (most of the US and iirc all of the UK included, plus more) women can't get charged with rape they can only get charged with "sexual assault" at worst. There are many resources for woman victims but not one for male victims, males are not welcome in the women's groups. Most people you talk to about it just want to tell you some variation of "I pretend I care about male victims but here's why women are more important than you."
It happened years ago and I've learned to live with it now, I don't need pity. I need people to stop invalidating male victims, pretending they don't exist, pretending we don't matter due to volume, etc, to help the ones it happens to now. Fuck me I'm fine now, but whatever dude it happens to today somewhere out there in the world could use some help.
Because the overwheling majority of sexual assault convictions are of men. It's true.
OHHH because the women who sexually assaulted me didn't get convicted in a court of law, because I didn't report them, because nobody cares about male victims, we should use that to further invalidate the experiences of future male victims? My mistake, how silly of me.
I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. I do not think that the statistics of abuser demographics should be relevant to their prosecution. That is a different thing to the thing I was talking about.
It would seem you think that women should be presumed innocent and men presumed guilty based on the number of people in each respective demographic that have been convicted of sexual assault in a court of law, based upon this thread here.
I can agree with all that, I think it comes off as endorsement or defense when coupled with the words of the third parties above, if that was not your intention then my mistake.
No retraumitization here, just all too used to seeing people actually minimize male victim's experience which I tend to push back against, so maybe I was a touch jumpy lol. All good!
You guys want to consider gender in vacuum but it is never a good idea.
Look at the sexualisation and brainwashing of the girls and patriarchy and men having this big power gap and sometimes using it in the most monstrous of the ways even today let alone 100 years ago. This is why the second image is big wtf while the first is small wtf.
That’s because in the first no one would immediately think that they sexualise the boy while in the second we arrive at this conclusion immediately and without hesitation thanks to all the hard work of men thorought history.
I know having this original sin of your fathers on your shoulders is not a cool feeling but this is the reality we are in.
The sooner this collective PTSD heals and that can only happen after some time of treating women as humans, the better for everyone. Problem is that point in history is far, far away considering the core issue is still prevalent.
It will take another 100 years of intense education and raising new generations to have the society that isn’t obviously fucked up and deeply hurt.
No one in the picture or the audience is sexualizing little girls (or boys). Instead, the outrage is caused by harmful expectations of purity that are imposed on girls and women, but not boys. As well as the current moral panic about pedophilia, which again is unhelpful in actuality protecting children.
Want to protect help children from predators? Help them remove the stigma around their bodies and sex, and empower them to speak and be heard when something they don’t like happens. Failing to do so reinforces the feelings of shame that all too often enable predators to get away with what they do.
And maybe also don’t share potentially embarrassing photos without consent but that’s small potatoes compared to the above issues.
Help them remove the stigma around their bodies and sex, and empower them to speak and be heard when something they don’t like happens.
This. So much this. If auntie wants to give them a kiss and they don't want to get slobbered then tough fucking luck auntie, I'll back the little shits up when they bite you. Predators are, by and large, able to do what they do because people don't teach kids that they do, in fact, have bodily autonomy.
And while I'm at it bodily autonomy of kids also implies that parents don't parade photos around like some fucking trophy or something. Have some basic fucking regard for your own kids and what they want. How would you feel when they're showing nude pictures of you to their classmates yeah I thought so.
I like this additional take with pure facts and discussion, It’s mostly uncharacteristically civil and starts to be interesting or at least has potential to be.
However I am mostly focused on why one picture is big wtf and why one is smaller wtf.
tl;dr "Misandry is perfectly fine because men are evil and nothing a woman has ever done is wrong."
The problem isn't that the bottom scenario isn't accepted, it's that the top scenario is. No one should be showing off nudes of children in public, or anywhere really, regardless of gender. It's weird, it's sick, and it has no place in this world.
Such a weird thing to say .. when I was little ('70s) it was not uncommon for kids to swim nude, we didn't care... Any adults who are ogling kids aren't going to stop just because of one layer of clothing.
If you're taking photos on a nude beach in Europe you're getting decked. Kid, adult, doesn't matter.
There's a massive fucking difference between sitting naked in a sauna with other naked people and sitting on public transit, fully dressed, gossiping about non-consensual nudes of children. How is that even a question. How are you capable of equating those things.
Except the comic doesn’t show them discussing or showing a naked body, it’s a weirdo pointing out the genitals to another person in a very public place. If it was toes, it’d be fine. If it was just a naked body it’d be whatever, mostly. But they’re specifically pointing out genitals, that implies sexual focus. It’s only “cute” and “funny” for the old women here because eventually it’ll be an organ used for sex…
Nah, it should never be acceptable to show photos of people naked to your friends without their express permission. Outside of medical professionals of course.
The hot tl;dr of this that is going to get you a lot of angry boys sending you incoherent diatribes is that we haven't decided as a species that we will stop sexualizing youth.
Yes there are biological imperatives for the sexually aggressive sex to seek out mates that are young, healthy and capable of producing offspring before they become too old to reproduce. That's all a thing that's real, but it's as far distant in our past as most other ancient instincts that we've put to rest. We just keep this one alive because we want it to continue broadly. The whole notion of older men predating and sexualizing youthful appearances or "innocence" as standards of femininity is absolutely something that if we all decided together was no longer acceptable, it would end tomorrow. (Or realistically in one generation.) This is not a more natural part of us than anything else we choose to follow or not, because we are well above using any natural response system as an excuse to allow dangerous social norms to continue.
The reason I say this is because there are a lot of men who will secretly or overtly hold the position that since we have biological urges, then it must be natural and acceptable. Meanwhile, ya'll fuckers completely ignore the thousand other biological drives and standards that we've abolished because they're unproductive, hurt people or just have gone out of style.
For example: body odor. Do you really think we were using soap and perfume when we were packed together in huts and caves for the last thousand millennia? You are genetically identical to the people who used to bury their faces in each other's armpits to identify each other in the dark, but the thought makes you gag now because you were socialized to feel repulsion at this. (Fetishes aside.) We can socialize ourselves to believe and internalize almost anything, we are far, far beyond the forces of natural selection and are now choosing our evolutionary path. Wouldn't it be nice if we chose good paths that respected others and protected children.
collective trauma refers to the impact of a traumatic experience that affects and involves entire groups of people, communities, or societies. Collective trauma is extraordinary in that not only can it bring distress and negative consequences to individuals but in that it can also change the entire fabric of a community (Erikson, 1976).
I appreciate your efforts but it is a real, scientifically proven phenomenon.
Sure, but PTSD is a specific disorder that individuals are diagnosed with. If a group of people are unable to work towards a single goal, saying they have "collective ADHD" is imprecise and potentially offensive to people with the diagnosis.
Trauma and ptsd can be used interchangeably. PTSD is more precise term and clinically significant. Trauma is more colloquial. I used PTSD on purpose to accent the debilitating effect it has on the society as a whole.
trauma and ptsd cannot be used interchangeably at all. PTSD is a specific mental condition documented in the DSM-5 and recognized by doctors that have multiple variations and nuances that must be taken into account. Trauma is an overarching term to describe experiences that have had a significant and profound impact on someone's mental state and health. I'm not usually a crazy stickler for word usage but this is just horribly imprecise language. You can have trauma without having PTSD. They are not the same thing and should not be treated as such.
Leiva-Bianchi, M., Nvo-Fernandez, M., Villacura-Herrera, C., Miño-Reyes, V., & Parra, N. (2023). What are the predictive variables that increase the risk of developing a complex trauma? A meta-analysis. Journal of Affective Disorders, 343, 153-165.
It’s rare in literature where there is a need for precision but common in practice
I was talking about collective trauma which OP was citing, though their initial term is collective PTSD.
Why would you use n-gram and not journal search engine like Google Scholar. There seems to be an engagement in the concept of collective PTSD since about 2007.
Is this an area of research or practice for you? It is not mine.
I think there's a couple of people around with collective OCD that just can't stand metaphor.
Jokes aside, and not being a sociologist, I do think it's a good distinction because PTSD implies a maladaptive reaction to trauma, and communities, just like individuals, can process their trauma well or they can mess it up.
Aydin, C. (2017). How to Forget the Unforgettable? On Collective Trauma, Cultural Identity, and Mnemotechnologies, Identity, 17:3, 125-137, DOI: 10.1080/15283488.2017.1340160
In fact, collective trauma can impact relationships, alter policies and governmental processes, alter the way the society functions, and even change its social norms (Chang, 2017; Hirschberger, 2018; Saul, 2014)
Maybe we should encourage suicides in boys starting in schools, would that work for you?
Edit: if you are going to down vote me the offer an idea the left will actually do. Otherwise I guess we are bringing up more republican rapists.
'50% of the world population would feel safer if you died' is the messaging the left offers so lean I to it or change the messaging
we arrive at this conclusion immediately and without hesitation thanks to all the hard work of men thorought history.
you say this like women have ever had rights to the point that being ogled at "would be bad" the one argument here would be the "daughter is her fathers property" and that's not really a gender thing, that's a social custom about gender more than anything.
Having had four kids, if you are showing people pictures of any baby in the bath naked, they're gonna be upset no matter the gender. I don't think his is true at all.
I feel.like we generally give women a pass on A LOT of weird behaviors about children.
That does include elevated attention to the genital area (seriously, why? Leave our genitals alone ffs), borderline fetishizing breastfeeding, and also a lot of other stuff.
Like, for example, I had several women independently telling me how baby feces smell nice and milky. Like, what the hell and why do y'all feel it's appropriate for a casual conversation???
Or that they love to smell baby feet. Huh? Funny thing I first got those stories after seeing a TV ad (was a while ago) with a woman burying her face in baby feet.
I can only assume this is either a result of hormonal shifts throughout pregnancy, or that there's plenty more female pedophiles than we knew.
It's an illustrative comment though. Our society teaches us not to view women as predatory, and to always view men as such - so that creates the difference between a woman talking about baby anatomy and a man talking about baby anatomy.
People are too weird about genitals. Our culture finds it so uncomfortable to talk to their sons about cleaning their penis that we started cutting the foreskin off to spare them the embarrassment.
This doesn't make it justifiable, but circumcision goes back a lot longer than our culture has existed. If Judaism had won out instead of Christianity, it could have been even more widespread than it is now. Some Muslim sects also mandate circumcision, and they could be the ones ruling the world.
Unfortunately, circumcision is a particular form of mutilation that transcends cultures.
Unfortunately, circumcision is a particular form of mutilation that transcends cultures.
a lot of mutilation goes back centuries for human history. You can pick up any variety of mutiliation and it's been done, scarrification, penile subincisions, foot binding, skull stretching, i can keep going.
Just because it's historically common and pervasive doesn't mean we should consider it to be normal. The aztecs commited human sacrifice, and we think capital punishment is bad enough that we need to hide it away from the general public and make it "sterile" which in reality means using a completely botched medical injection process.
also what culture "should be" does not determine what it is now, i'm not sure the legality of naked baby photos to begin with tbh, i'm pretty sure they're still considered to be CP, unless legally stated otherwise somewhere. They wouldn't count as CSAM i think, since there's not abuse going on, but arguably it might count as CP still.
Depends where in the world you are. In the US it was popularized by Dr Kellogg to curb masturbation. He also recommended a few drops of carbolic acid applied to young girls clits to damage the nerves and avoid what he called "abnormal excitement".
Dude was opposed to pretty much anything even vaguely resembling pleasure, he invented corn flakes as a food to be as bland and tasteless as possible. The only reason they ever became a popular breakfast cereal is because of his brother adding sugar to them despite Kelloggs objections
'cleanliness' and 'looking like their father' were later justifications after the practice had already gained traction.
About smell :
"In 2021, inhalation of hexadecanal was found to reduce aggression in men but to trigger aggression in women.[4] Hexadecanal is one of the most abundant substances emitted by human babies from their heads, which may be an evolutionary survival mechanism to induce mothers to defend the baby and fathers to not attack it. But it is not yet known whether the amount of hexadecanal emitted by humans is sufficient to affect other humans." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexadecanal
It would make sense. There are other behaviours that directly lower male aggression. Smiling and emotional tears.
Which is awesome for babies since non-human primate males are known to kill offspring of other males in order to get the mother in estrus sooner.
It's also the reason women smile when nervous and cry a lot more. I suppose you have to if you lack offense and defence. E.g. estrogens slowing muscular and skeletal growth in the upper body. And growing hair enough for thermal regulation, but not enough to redistribute blunt forces. The reason beards exist is to protect the jaw.
Interestingly, the main motive for men to commit homicide is dominance seeking behaviour. Men are more likely to kill every age with exception of infants. Women's main motives for homicide are self-defence first and jelousy second. Infanticide is almost exclusively done by women. Often their own too. Never trust a woman who had a miscarriage with your newborn or your pregnant wife. High prolactin, loss of child and stealing babies is not just a human thing.
I wonder how the willingness to kill your own (high risk and expensive) baby influenced human evolution. Since it's the other way around in other primates. Recon it reduced rape to be merely a dominance thing rather than a reproductive strategy?
Yes humans, as animals, have many wild internal forces. Horrible cases of abuse (babies, infants, women) were most certainly the result of these. Such horrible stories are then (sometimes // in part) keept (in folklore // culture) and help to warn us about these internal forces.
(sorry I know I don't have the exact words)
i believe it makes biological sense that if a women kills babies from rape, this, over many generation, would reduce rape. But again, this is something that is beyond my knowledge.
It does. We also evolved embryo wasting. A measurement to reduce non-viable pregnancies. Except it also tends to dispose of potentially healthy embryo's. They used to think 70% was wasted. But now they think it's between 40 and 60%.
This is a good thing, since it also enables more monogamous behaviour. More sex with the same guy = greater chance at conception. And reduces both male/male and female/female competition. So basically more coop-mode for everyone. Sucks only women suffer the drawbacks of this perk.
Not only that. Paternal care is something other primates lack. But men did develop paternal care as prolactin levels in the brain increase when men see their baby. Paternal care interestinly enough, isn't just a back-up parent in case the mom dies during labour. It's invaluable. Especially to boys who prefer to learn from their fathers.
On top of this, we also have meno- and andropause. Where people lose fertility. This is only seen in two other species. Both matriarchies where the leader is determined by her experience. Orca's and elephants. Sticking around while not competing with her own children is amazing. It's why we live so long. Fun fact. Male orcas only live 30 years, but female orcas live somewhere between 60 and 90 years. Makes that "women live 3 years longer than men on average" seem insignificant huh? In any case. Love your grandparents.
Anyhow. It's no surprise that forced mating is so common in nature, but not that common in humans. We are doing well despite rape still existing.
I think it's likely really surprising to learn/experience that feces of a breastfed baby (and to a lesser extent formula fed babies) don't smell like shit. It's natural to want to share a surprising learning. Might also be good to be forewarned the milky smell ends once normal food is introduced.
"I wish I didn't know about societal and existential problems of humanity. I was happier when I didn't. I hate myself now everyday, I wish I had the courage to stop my suffering."
At its core it usually is, but they often push it outward. My experience with a conservative religion was mostly just self hatred at not being good enough too honestly, but my personality was never much on the conservative axis. Or rather, when I did stuff on that level I never felt good about them.
That is, anger, outrage, paranoia, and ignorance are their comfort zone. It’s what they know. And in my little corner of the world, the more vociferously conservative they are, the less self-aware they are about it.
It’s really pervasive in ways I never truly realized until way too far into adulthood when I was working to get that shit out of my own head.
