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glovecraft ,

The subscription, like HP’s recent ad campaign promoting its printers as “made to be less hated,” trades on the idea that printers are frustrating commodities. The company’s configurator page mentions bonuses like “continuous printer coverage” and “next-business-day printer replacement,”

Our printers are unreliable pieces of absolute shit guys. But if you do the subscription we'll replace your shitty broken rental printer next day. Never worry that you can't print when you need to print. Mindblowing.

Just make reliable printers that work, dumbasses.

corsicanguppy ,

Just make reliable printers that work, dumbasses.

Again, you mean. My LJ4 was sold at 20 years old, more due to toner scarcity than any real problem.

SacralPlexus ,

Nailed it. I currently have an HP Laserjet 2100 for home printing and it is around 20 years old and going strong. Now you’ve made me think I should maybe order some toner ahead…

BearOfaTime ,

Just 6 months ago replaced my 1996 IBM Laser printer.

And it probably still works, keeps saying "paper jam" though I've cleaned it out. Probably a bad sensor/switch. I'll fix it some time.

Rodeo ,

“made to be less hated,”

They still want to be hated, just less.

Who's the halfwit that came up with that line lmao

NutWrench ,
@NutWrench@lemmy.world avatar

Yup. That slogan is the end result of a long line of bad company decisions.

Wooki ,

Dont buy hp?

UnculturedSwine ,

If they made reliable printers that worked, they wouldn't have a business because everyone would have a reliable printer that worked and hp would have no one left to sell printers to. The problem has always been the shortcomings of shareholder capitalism.

Cosmicomical ,

I think it's time for an open source 2d printer project, we have open source 3d printers and the technology is much more complex than 2d. Time to put HP to sleep

SVcross OP ,
@SVcross@lemmy.world avatar

Patents are prohibiting anyone from developing something like that.

threelonmusketeers ,

When do the patents expire? Seems like 2D printers are relatively old technology by this point.

pewgar_seemsimandroid ,

fax machines are the predecessor to 2d printers i guess

SVcross OP ,
@SVcross@lemmy.world avatar

For example, a very important patent for any inkjet is the one where heads self clean, basically maintenance. Without that, an inkjet printer would be a pain to have.

Zacryon ,

x doubt

Cosmicomical ,

I'm sure there would be workaounds to that, also I'm not selling anything, just sharing a project and list of components. i'm not a lawyer but i'm pretty sure there's nothing they can do to stop me

Player2 ,

I would argue that 2D printing is a lot more complicated than 3D, and it's not even close

null ,
@null@slrpnk.net avatar

That's surprising and interesting -- how come?

refreeze ,
@refreeze@lemmy.world avatar

I think it is a combination of the required precision, liquid ink vs solid filament and the difficulty of handing paper vs simply moving a print bed on a 3d printer.

Zacryon ,

I'd argue that this is not an issue from a technical perspective, which would halt open hardware endeavours.

The precision is mainly a problem regarding the used motors / actuation system, which in turn is "just" a money issue, but the hardware is there. Paper handling is pretty easy.

I don't know how complicated it would be to create ink or laser cartridges, but given that there are a lot of 3rd party vendors who offer refill services, I suppose it is manageable.

My guess for the reason why there is no open hardware 2D printer yet is, because nobody has seriously started such a project yet.

derpgon ,

There was simply no need, we already have great 2D printers. Like Brother, which doesn't have DRM, doesn't need internet, and doesn't complain about anything ever.

GeneralVincent ,

The hardware precision is the hard part, along with speed. Most hardware parts wouldn't be hard to get because most of the printer is just motors, rollers, etc, but the print head itself is the part that would be the hard part.

https://computer.howstuffworks.com/inkjet-printer.htm

Here's a good reference, from that website describing thermal bubble which is the more common technology;

Thermal bubble - Used by manufacturers such as Canon and Hewlett Packard, this method is commonly referred to as bubble jet. In a thermal inkjet printer, tiny resistors create heat, and this heat vaporizes ink to create a bubble. As the bubble expands, some of the ink is pushed out of a nozzle onto the paper. When the bubble "pops" (collapses), a vacuum is created. This pulls more ink into the print head from the cartridge. A typical bubble jet print head has 300 or 600 tiny nozzles, and all of them can fire a droplet simultaneously. Click the button to see how a thermal bubble inkjet printer works.

So that's the part that would be hard to manufacture, and even if you were able to do it and open source it, it would likely be slower and less precise than the other big companies.

I'm not an engineer, but I work tech support for one of the inkjet printer companies and we learned how the printers work. It's pretty interesting, and there's more to consider than you might think. Like color accuracy, if you want to make green on paper then you use cyan and yellow ink. Not only do you have to worry about making sure the print head spits out the correct ratio of cyan to yellow, you have to worry about which color it deposits first. If it drops yellow first, that's going to be a slightly different hue than if it deposits cyan first. So how do you make sure it deposits the correct color when the print head is moving left to right and back to left? If it deposited ink on the return back to the left, it would be dropping the opposite color first so your colors would be slightly different leading to visible bands or lines. And having the print head return to the left side without printing would take twice as long to print. You have to design the print head with that in mind, and more.

Anyways, I'm sure it's possible but it would take a lot of time and effort to make sure it worked well enough to be comparable to the big names with proprietary tech.

Player2 ,

For 3D printing to work, you basically just need some standard motors to move a thing that gets hot around. Yes it needs to be pretty precise, but it's only printing at a single point that moves. Classic 2D printing not only prints across the whole sheet at once, it is also sometimes expected to do it in color (which does take multiple passes usually). As for the technological aspects of conventional printers, I really don't consider myself an expert, there are great videos online. However by my understanding, a laser is often used to trace the exact contents of the page so that the depositing material is picked up and placed. That sort of light manipulation is already more complicated than everything most 3D printers do.

Basically, you could build a new 3D printer in your garage using off the shelf parts and some knowhow, but good luck even repairing a 2D printer with a serious problem in its printing mechanism, though this difficulty is certainly not made better by companies such as HP

null ,
@null@slrpnk.net avatar

Huh, makes sense. Thanks!

mystik ,

I see this said every time this comes up.

Are there any efforts starting or even attempting this? Or even taking an existing printer and replacing it's main board?

mods_are_assholes ,

As it stands now printhead technology for quality prints needs microscopic precision and materials like precisely perforated foils that are just not easy to make outside of a specialized fabrication shop, and even then it won't scale.

hamid ,
@hamid@lemmy.world avatar

I have a brother laser printer that I love. I just fill up a tub with generic toner and it keeps printing for almost a decade now. I'm old and like to print things. I think it's much easier to read on paper and I'm happier to print out a 150 page book than read it on a Kindle lol. I've also broken multiple ereaders commuting on trains but still have all the papers I saved in binders I printed and really enjoyed reading and will last nearly forever.

Fedizen ,

the amount of engineering and programming hours spent to make their products worse is just a symptom of how stupid, wasteful decisions are made when there is not enough competition in these industries.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

There are relatively recent refurbished Brother laser printers on NewEgg for under $200.

You can get a used older model on eBay for under $200.

And the chances that used older model will work just fine for you for years to come is high.

My Brother is between 15 and 20 years old, only on its second toner cartridge, and still working like a charm.

There are a lot of options to do color printing for cheap if you only need it very occasionally like most people. The local public library may even offer free color printing.

VindictiveJudge ,
@VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world avatar

Man, I thought for a moment you were saying you had a teenage sibling that had was on his second cartridge.

kamen ,

Bruh

polygon6121 ,

I can see it being an option for some people. If you print low volume but regularly every month.
And you need a printer that always just works. The problem is the monthly limits! The base package is 20 pages per month, just printing out a pdf manual or something would eat that up in a minute. I would want unused prints to be added to next month.

Otherwise it is very similar to how it works for businesses having larger office printers.

JohnDClay ,

And it's still more expensive than a brother printer after a year and a half, and one of those will last decades.

just_another_person ,

Brother FTW 🐐

gilokee ,
@gilokee@lemmy.world avatar

Canon tho!

just_another_person ,

Canon is better than HP for sure, but not as reliable, compatible, or unobtrusive as Brother. I bought a higher-end Canon photo printer that just would not work well outside of Windows, and my main drivers are Linux and Android. Brother has never failed me there.

wreckedcarzz ,
@wreckedcarzz@lemmy.world avatar

I'm 2.5y into testing that claim, with a MFC-J6930DW. So far, no issues at all.

ikidd ,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

I've deployed half a dozen in the last dozen years. All still going.

GreyEyedGhost ,

I have a brother color laser, only had to change toner. My mom has a brother laser, haven't changed toner. These things run like trucks.

Alto , (edited )

I spent way longer than I ever hoped to primarily selling printers. This is the answer. I'd wager a solid 80% of people would be better off buying a cheap brother laser and just going to walgreens/office depot/where ever the 2 times a year they need to print in color

MeatsOfRage ,

Yea I definitely fall into the 20 pages or less a month category. Hell I probably fall into the 20 pages or less a year category. But I'd never add a subscription for something I can just buy out.

cmnybo ,

It's not just a subscription, it's a two year contract with a large early cancellation fee.

NateNate60 ,

I know it's not necessarily an option for everyone, but the printer at the library always works and costs way less or is free.

EngineerGaming ,
@EngineerGaming@feddit.nl avatar

Or a copycenter.

NateNate60 ,

Printing shops have existed as long as there have been printers. People rarely need to print anything anyway but most will convince themselves against it because they think it's a hassle or that they will print a lot more than they actually do.

Many people I know end up replacing their ink cartridges almost every time they have to print because it's been so long that the ink has dried up...

captainlezbian ,

And it doesn’t take up space. Like seriously, I haven’t really printed at home since college

tabular ,
@tabular@lemmy.world avatar

Those who see this as an option are not well. They are neglected by the tech literates who could help them do better and the people who understand the value of ownership that could help them be better.

Apollo2323 ,

I don't know what are you talking about. I have a Canon printer is being 10 years since I bought it and its working like new. This is the reason why HP can get away with this idiotic move.

MxM111 , (edited )

If you are over the initial pages, then it is $1 per 10-15 pages. Which is much cheaper than the original $6.99 for first 20 pages. $1 per 15 pages probably costs the same if you own HP printer and buy HP ink.

BearOfaTime ,

A laser printer always just works.

My 1996 laser just got replaced 6 months ago. I replaced the toner once or twice... Because I'm a low volume printer.

Low volume is probably also just B/W. But even a color laser isn't that much. Canon has a line of office color that aren't awfully expensive, and not large.

Why would I pay for a lease that over it's contract term is as much as a Canon color laser that will:

  1. Run longer on it's starter toners

  2. Never clog

  3. Probably run for 10 years or more

callmepk , (edited )
@callmepk@lemmy.world avatar

When HP requires HP Smart account to print, the brand was already dead to me

Also any recommendation for printers?

EDIT: damn, I think I am going to get a Brother Laser Printer in the future

androogee ,

If you don't need color printing, I've had a fantastic experience with my Brother monochrome laser printer, fwiw. So much cheaper than ink.

Swegoreg ,

I have a colour laser printer from Brother and have also had a great experience with it, been going strong for 5 years now

LemmyRefugee ,

Brother (Dc4020 model if I remember correctly). I have been using it for 10 years using off brand color toner and very well so far.

MashedTech ,

I love my Canons, especially the canon laser printer

Patch ,

Everyone loves Brother for good reason.

I've had a decent experience with my Xerox too.

shadowspirit ,

Never had a problem with Brother printers

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

I mean, they're printers. So...

But yes, Brother is definitely one of the better options on the market.

Dicska , (edited )

God forbid I recommended you to buy an HP ever, but it feels like they've been awful only in the ink jet section. At least my HP laser printer (283 something) doesn't require me to have a(n) HP Smart account (I don't even know how/where to set up one), I've had it for ~3-4 years now, and it's been reliable and trusty ever since. I can imagine they started pulling the same shady shit with the new laser printers, but this one seems to be working as of now. Fingers crossed.

EDIT: Still buy a Brother, I have only heard amazing things about them; just saying it's not happening everywhere - yet.

Fudoshin ,
@Fudoshin@feddit.uk avatar

Brother are good but I got a Kyocera about 6yrs ago and have never had to change the toner. I've been through about 2 blocks of paper in that time. Prints great.

Plug & Play on Windows and Linux

danielfgom ,
@danielfgom@lemmy.world avatar

HP is in the extortion business now....

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Which printer you get depends on the plan you choose. They start at $6.99 per month for 20 pages’ worth of prints and whatever the current HP Envy model is, and go all the way up to a $35.99-a-month affair that gets you an OfficeJet Pro and 700 pages. If you go over your page allotment, HP will add more for a dollar per block of 10–15 pages.

This is 100% a trap for elderly people who reflexively print everything they see on the computer.

Flax_vert ,

The subscription, like HP’s recent ad campaign promoting its printers as “made to be less hated,”

Literally "cause a problem, sell them the solution" 🤣

umbraroze ,

I bought a Canon laser printer 10 years ago. The only thing I've needed since then was a single new set of toner. (And a bunch of paper, obviously.)

Even back then it was pretty obvious that ink jets are waste of money and everyone that I knew who had ink jets were just constantly complaining about them.

xploit ,

FWIW we have dumb business owners to thank for that.

They've been doing this with the Indigo's for 8+ years that I'm aware of, so probably much longer.
And ofc businesses fell for it because just like most cloud shit, nobody can be bothered to calculate actual costs, just fudge stuff and get your bonus/pay rise for pretending to have done something beneficial.

dumpsterlid ,

I appreciate the context you added but I think it is important to underline that ultimately we still have hp to thank for this. They didn’t have to be an awful company.

xploit ,

Oh, I'm not denying that they are greedy assholes. But at the same time I feel like we're in that comic, they saw an terrible opportunity, implemented this shit and were like "no way anyone is going to fall for that", and "we" allowed them to like "we" seem to do with many other terrible things in this world, and here we are with them laughing away at "our" stupidity.

There seem to be just enough dumb people around to enable assholes like this to exist, which I find sad and disturbing.
It's almost like there is a reason certain groups want people to stay dumb and ban books, ban those who are different from learning etc

Couple of other things about the print stuff; I seriously doubt this even needs to profitable for them in the short term (it likely is), so unless it's dead on arrival, the longer it keeps going, the more chances this will be the only available solution....perhaps a last ditch effort to milk us dry before printing dies?

And for anyone who comes across this in the future, at best you're paying 10x per page compared to what medium size business did many years ago, and no you're not even getting a real service.

dumpsterlid ,

There seem to be just enough dumb people around to enable assholes like this to exist

sigh yup! Always was, always will be, it is maddening isn't it.

We can do this even with all the idiots though, they will fall in line behind good ideas for the same stupid reasons they will fall behind bad ideas.

mrfriki ,

Has always been meme

wagoner ,

I guess hp won't care but, while I have bought hp computers for years, this last time I went looking at other brands because of this printer nonsense.

jodanlime ,
@jodanlime@midwest.social avatar

As you should. The obviously don't have any loyalty to their customers, don't give them any back.

dumpsterlid ,

I am sorry some sort of dark curse forced you to only buy hp computers for years, that sounds rough

autotldr Bot ,

This is the best summary I could come up with:

The company debuted a subscription service today — just like CEO Enrique Lores said it would last month — called the HP All-In Plan.

So if you decide HP All-In isn’t for you after all, you’ll have to return the printer and go back to rubbing elbows with everyone else at FedEx whenever the need to print arises.

That way, if a firmware upgrade blue-screens your printer, at least you have some recourse that doesn’t involve driving to a store to buy a whole new one.

And receiving ink before you run out is great if you are, like me, the kind of person who ignores the “low ink” warning all the way until I’m fully out and am actually printing something critical, rather than coloring pages for your kid, for once.

But those are mostly functions of the fact that I don’t really print that often and rarely encounter the annoyances of printer ownership.

One is HP’s plan, which appeals to the frustration of user-hostile experiences like scanners that don’t work because you bought third-party ink and printers that become unusable without some serious effort because you moved overseas.

The original article contains 451 words, the summary contains 190 words. Saved 58%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

tree ,
@tree@lemmy.zip avatar

Even if it wasn't

BDS: https://bdsmovement.net/boycott-hp

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