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Please, for the love of God, VOTE!

I don't like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.

Not voting isn't going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he's publicly told Israel to "finish up their war". He'll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn't a straight cisgender male back here at home.

A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it's a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy's, and "sticking it to liberals" and "refusing to support genocide" (that's not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way -- a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.

How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see an entire national election as what will happen in the Middle East and ignore Trump's campaign promises to wipe transgender Americans off the map, and further, to not realize that the same thing will happen in the Middle East regardless of which candidate wins?

I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I'll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there's a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.

https://files.catbox.moe/cnc9p9.webp

Tar_alcaran ,

Also, trump appointed 3 supreme court justices, who will be there FOR LIFE.

catharso ,

Assassinate 'em, you say?

No, just kidding.

I'm just someone watching from Europe, getting a little concerned 😔

Tar_alcaran ,

Same here. Watching from Europe, and going "hmm, I think we had a few very bloody revolutions to solve these kinds of problems"

phoneymouse ,

Thanks to leftists who wouldn’t vote

inclementimmigrant ,

Do I hate the two party system? Yes. Do I hate the fact that centrists like Joe Liberman who literally killed universal healthcare in the US are revered and embraced by Biden's party? Yes. Do I hate the fact that Democrats are always dismissive of liberal ideas and often act like complete jackasses and can't admit that when Obama was running there were a ton of Clinton supporters that didn't vote for Obama in a blatant act of pure hypocrisy? Yes.

Do I fucking hate Nazis and Fascist? Fuck yes.

Hence why even if I don't like the Democrat running, I'll vote for them and honestly, Biden isn't too sucktastic. Except for kyrsten sinema, she can fuck right the hell off forever.

Eatspancakes84 ,

I hate how so many critics talk about they when criticising a political party. Get involved. Run for local office, become a part of the inside of the party. How can Democrats ever represent younger leftists, when so few of the younger leftists let their voice be heard outside of anonymous forums?

abracaDavid ,

Yeah lemme get like $2,000,000 so I can go run for office.

go_go_gadget ,

All so a bunch of white Boomers can show up and vote against you for being "too radical".

zeppo ,
@zeppo@lemmy.world avatar

Campaigns don’t tend to be self-funded.

Krauerking ,

Hey are you involved in your political party? Have you run for local office?

You aren't also being a hypocrite by telling other people to get involved while not doing it yourself right?

Kumikommunism ,

Do I hate the fact that centrists like Joe Liberman who literally killed universal healthcare in the US are revered and embraced by Biden's party?

Joe Biden explicitly said he would veto any legislation involving universal healthcare. You oppose universal healthcare, but you're hiding behind the spectre of "centrists".

inclementimmigrant ,

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/10/facebook-posts/when-biden-was-asked-if-he-would-veto-medicare-all/

And again, as a minority in America, I would take Biden over a Nazi any day. Doesn't mean I love him to death and would take him into my arms and give him a reach around but fuck anyone who would vote for a Nazi.

abracaDavid ,

Do I hate everything going on in this country? Yes.
Do I still keep voting to have the same shit happen over and over? Yes.

inclementimmigrant ,

I mean if you want to vote in a bunch of fucking Nazis and fascists just for some change , well feel fucking free to do so, I'm just going to consider you stupid and a Nazi.

bigMouthCommie ,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

democrats are fascist.

inclementimmigrant ,

Okay they Billy Madison.

bigMouthCommie ,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

this doesnt change the truth of what i said

inclementimmigrant ,

Sure. Very nice truthiness there Billy.

bigMouthCommie ,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

this is an appeal to ridicule. it is not a rebuttal

halva ,
@halva@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/9b5b3a06-ac66-4c54-8fa6-09bfec023bf0.jpeg

not literally everything that's bad is fascist

megopie ,

The party needs to start trying to win apathetic voters over if they’re as terrified as they claim to be of trump, not just spout vague platitudes, push out the most bare bones minimum viable policy possible and then shrug when it gets dismembered in committee.

hex_m_hell ,
@hex_m_hell@slrpnk.net avatar

Liberals would rather blame leftists than actually fight fascism.

Cowbee ,

See: Weimar Republic

tacosanonymous ,

Leftist here. What are you doing to "fight," brother?

hex_m_hell ,
@hex_m_hell@slrpnk.net avatar

[this space intentionally left blank]

go_go_gadget ,

What would you recommend?

hex_m_hell , (edited )
@hex_m_hell@slrpnk.net avatar

There are folks preparing for armed insurrection. I would say there are probably enough of those folks already, I'm not saying they're wrong, just that it's easy to think of that as a default solution and miss the much more important foundation building work.

Collective disaster preparedness is indistinguishable from preparing the logistical side of a revolution. The art of was says that for every person on the field of battle, 7 are in support.

The idea of the revolutionary with a gun is attractive, especially for those of us socialized male. But there are a lot of critical roles that are revolutionary and are not that. In a lot of ways the glorification of the militant serves the state by making the resiatence easier to kill. Focus on the things that are harder to justify killing people over and harder for feds to figure out how to disrupt. The armed part of the Panthers were used to justify the attacks, but the breakfast program is why they were a real threat.

My favorite example from the past of a revolutionary project I worked on was our local GDC's food security committee. We started with a shared pantry for members. This allowed some members to engage in riskier things like striking because they knew they'd have food covered. Other times it just supported people through hard times. We did some guerilla gardening on some abandoned plots. I learned to forage. Eventually it grew in to a few folks regularly bringing canned food to houseless camps and providing them material support.

Houseless camps are a threat to the stability of the state. They are necessarily a lawless space which threaten the legitimacy of the state.

The biggest lesson we need to take away from the Syrian civil war is that whoever can fulfil the needs of the people becomes the regional power. The state will control resource (like food) to control people. If you can disrupt their ability to control those resources or provide alternatives, then the state has less power to leverage. Simultaneously, fascist terrorists will attack the infrastructure in order to inflict suffering and control people. In both cases, providing things like food to comrade makes resistence possible and undermines the legitimacy of an authoritarian state.

A state that cannot fulfil the needs of its people loses legitimacy. But the other pillar, aside from fulfilling needs, is the legitimacy of the infrastructure of violence. My other favorite project was an independent journalism and public records activism collective. Lucy Parsons Labs OpenOversight is a plarform for police accountability. Since police ultimately will never be held accountable, pointing this out weakens the state's ability to leverage them without losing legitimacy with the people.

So erode the narrative of the state and build it's replacement. If you read Che Guevara's Guerilla Warfare or any book like that, you'll realize that the literal fighting part is probably the smallest and least import part of a revolution. The fate of the revolution is decided long before anyone picks up a gun.

So go talk to your neighbors, find out what they need. Organize with comrades. Join food not bombs. Push local disaster prep groups to support houseless camps, since it's also indistinguishable from supporting people after a major natural disaster. If you do all the legal and easily justifiable things then if a fed infiltrates your group they just end up doing a lot of work without being able to disrupt anything.

Finally, go read as much as you can about the Rojava. Learn about Libertarian Communalism and think about how that translates to the US context.

To do any of this you need to organize. Start a book club or join one. Join FNB. Find other people. Talk to your neighbors. You would be amazed how many normal people actually want radical change. I've talked to liberals who are really radicals who haven't figured out how to make it actually work. Don't discount normal folks, because revolution is impossible without their involvement.

Edit: a note on foraging, one of the critical things for a revolutionary guerilla force is soap. Most US cities have abundant horse chestnuts (buckeyes or conkers). These are natural soap and can be used for laundry detergent, hand soap, or body soap. To anyone in an urban area, you're welcome.

Masterblaster420 ,

thank you for an excellent, well-written post. you're 100% correct. i'd like to also add the need for secure communication to that list of logistics. the revolution needs hackers and programmers so badly.

but yeah, all that plus vote biden, whether you like it or not. we can eat him later.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

They recommend nothing at all.

Remember comrades,

-Direct action (strike, strike, strike, preferably imo, and hold ur surplus value hostage)

-Mutual aid

-Voting to ensure you can pursue the first 2 with minimal govt interference

All are acceptable avenues. All are necessary. None are mutually exclusive.

tacosanonymous ,

The direct action is organizing. Creating communities and networks and advocacy. Being proactive and not fighting/alienating people.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

That sounds like mutual aid to me, whereas protesting/striking/[REDACTED] are direct action, but whatever, fuck the definitions. We clearly want the same. Keep organizing and building bridges, ur spot on.

tacosanonymous ,

Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound like I was arguing. I am agreeing with you.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

Well.... i should save face somehow....hmmm.....

pursue mutual aid then, fuckface, since we must argue!!! I bet u hate that!!!1!🤬😡🤬😡

/s

Sorry too much internet

juicy ,

Stop pretending to be a radical leftist when you support genocide: https://midwest.social/comment/8554707

“Support genocide” in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

Lol. Someone doesnt understand geopolitics.

We have an open trade agreement with israel. They want to buy, we say how much. I never said i supported it, but if ur curious ive been railing against the apartheid state for 15 years now simce back before i was a leftist. Doesnt change that there is no candidate thatd be capable of ending that policy on a whim.

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

If you look at how many times liberals staged a coup and put a dictator in charge because country decided to democratically elect a vaguely leftist president you start to realize they much prefer fascism to leftism. Now they're just doing the same thing domestically.

GnomeKat ,
@GnomeKat@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Fascism is colonial imperialism turned inward.

glockenspiel ,

You could say similar about our leftist history. How many countries did we instigate revolutions in to overthrow even somewhat democratic governments?

Radicals will rationalize anything including putting Trump back into office.

Maggoty ,

That logic doesn't follow. We used insurgencies to overthrow leftist democracies in favor of fascism, so leftists something something?

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?

Cowbee ,

Socialist states have historically assisted in socialist revolutions of bourgois dictatorships.

EndlessNightmare ,

Indeed, you've spelled it out plainly: there is no vote option to end the U.S. funding of Israel's genocide in Gaza.

I can either make a vote that won't end it, or I can make a vote that won't end it (and may actually make it worse, as you alluded) and will also lead to significant negative consequences for many groups of people here.

If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.

Not just trans, but homosexual, non-white, non-religious, women.

AVincentInSpace OP ,

THANK YOU.

juicy ,

There are several options if you refuse to vote for genocide. You have just decided you don't mind.

idiomaddict ,

Buddy, friend, gamer. It’s march. Can you bring this out in six months? There is no reason to fill everyone’s feed up like this and sow political division on the left over seven months before it’s relevant.

Plus, the pressure looks like it’s working, so a vote for Biden might be a lot more palatable then. A lot of your work might get done automatically

BluJay320 ,
@BluJay320@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Anyone who doesn’t vote immediately loses the right to complain for the next 4 years.

Don’t like it? Should’ve done your duty and put in a vote.

Fuck you, fence sitters

FiniteBanjo ,

Are the fence sitters in the room with us now?

spujb ,

yes. yes they are.

go_go_gadget ,

Ok I'll be voting 3rd party.

BluJay320 ,
@BluJay320@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Ok, I’ll blame you as well if Trump wins

go_go_gadget ,

I'll blame Biden for refusing to make material compromises with leftists and progressives in order to get the votes he needs.

BluJay320 ,
@BluJay320@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I’ll blame you when the nazis legislate me and my brethren out of existence. You could have helped to stop this, but instead you decided to sit by and throw a tantrum like a fucking child.

go_go_gadget ,

You could help stop this by fighting Biden instead of fighting me.

Masterblaster420 ,

are you 12? STFU

Masterblaster420 ,

ooo, look at little lord edgelroy.

megopie ,

If you actually care about trump, actually fear what he will do, maybe you should do everything you can to push for policy that will get the fence sitters to show the fuck up, rather than insulting them.

Voting does not wash your hands of responsibility for actively pushing away the people you need voting with you.

BluJay320 ,
@BluJay320@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I cant control policy. Not alone. But right now, we have this election. And it is one of two options

The idiots that are choosing to abstain or waste a vote on third party are responsible for Trumps victory if it happens. Yes, even moreso than the republicans. Because they could have defended against it but instead chose not to.

Fuck fence sitters. Fuck abstainers, FUCK THIRD PARTY VOTERS

You all deserve whatever hell comes for you.

megopie ,

You can yell at them all you like, but do you think that will change their minds? Do you think that does any good?

Maybe go yell at the party for dropping the ball so hard that those people feel this is their only recourse.

If trump wins, it will be the fault of the party in charge of beating him, not the fault of the people they failed to convince.

flying_sheep ,
@flying_sheep@lemmy.ml avatar

I've seen several in this thread who didn't read the OP, didn't engage with its arguments, just stomped their feet and said “but Biden didn't give us exactly what we want so we're not gonna”.

How can you reason with people who don't feel like reading your argument?

Masterblaster420 ,

You all deserve whatever hell comes for you.

hear hear. i'm so sick of trying to explain how western democracy works to toddlers. fuck it. FAFO you little idiots. i'm already packed up and heading for my bunker. ya'll can sort this whole, stupid, goddamn mess out yourselves.

jaemo ,

4 years? You will not be so lucky if the choice is fascism.

ArmokGoB ,

Anyone that isn't voting for Biden is helping someone get into office that will implement wildly homophobic and transphobic policies. People in this thread are really showing their cards.

Maggoty ,

I'm a disabled veteran. I know exactly what Trump thinks of us and exactly how he fucked us last time he was in office. But I will not let myself or others be held hostage for our country to support Genocide. If you think you're helping anyone by showing politicians they have no accountability then you're in for a rude awakening.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

"Support genocide" in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.

Under dump Eastern Europe gets trampled and the rest of Europe gets pulled into open war.

We will not teach democrats accountability by throwing our democracy down the pisser to spite them and never have another chance to vote.

juicy ,

And there it is! All this noise about choosing the lesser of two evils, but it truth, you support the genocide.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

Lol. Someone doesnt understand geopolitics.

We have an open trade agreement with israel. They want to buy, we say how much. I never said i supported it, but if ur curious ive been railing against the apartheid state for 15 years now simce back before i was a leftist. Doesnt change that there is no candidate thatd be capable of ending that policy on a whim.

lemmywinks ,

What if I want wildly homophobic and transphobic policies?

ArmokGoB ,

The 196 mods/blahaj admins might be interested in hearing about your opinions.

megopie ,

Anyone who doesn’t push for the Democratic Party to support policies that will convince those people to vote are actively doing the same. It takes two to tango, and moderates need to work with the left if they hate trump as much as they claim too.

Tinidril ,

It's amazing that the vast majority of progressives always come around and vote for the lesser evil, yet we have to listen to this ranting every single time.

You are right that they should be pushing the Democratic establishment to do better, but there is a reason they don't. They know that progressives are willing to make compromises, but the establishment is not.

Biden would choose Trump over a progressive candidate. We know this because he did. When the Democrats moved the first primary to South Carolina from New Hampshire, they probably threw away the NH electoral votes, and they know they will never win SC. They would rather Trump win than face another progressive challenger.

megopie ,

Yah, they seem real eager to scream and bash progressives and leftists for letting trump win, but are shocked and aghast when anyone suggests they didn’t do enough to push a platform and candidates that could beat trump in the election.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

Youre talking about neolib politicians. You should be pursuing direct action for the changes u seek. Your vote is there as damage control to ensure we can still pursue other avenues of change or mutual aid without persecution.

Tinidril ,

As I said, progressives inevitably do end up voting for the shitty neoliberal. Exit Polls have always shown that. Then when the shitty neoliberals lose,they always find a way to blame it on progressives. That's what makes these constant "please just vote" posts especially obnoxious.

The people in these forums are not the people you need to reach. Unlikely voters are unlikely to hang out in political discussions. If you really give a shit, phone bank, canvass, or call your representatives and tell them to quit fucking up so people won't check out of the system.

If you want to virtue signal and play into the neoliberal spin machine, keep doing this. All you are really doing is providing space for all the right wing trolls to try and convince people that not voting is virtuous.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

I disagree that having these conversations on lemmy is playing into the "neoliberal spin machine" (great term, btw). My conversation is aimed at leftists in hopes of building pan-leftist solidarity, or something of that nature. This is where plenty of leftists hang out online, so this is a reasonable place to have this discussion.

You are spot on that phonebanking, canvassing, and harassing ur rep is more effective at getting ppl to vote for Status Quo Joe.

Tinidril ,

Leftists ought to see that Biden is immeasurably better than Trump and act accordingly, but there is no solidarity to be had with the Democratic establishment.

Neoliberalism, just like classical liberalism, is a right wing political philosophy. The left must ally with liberals as necessary, but there is no "pan-leftist solidarity" possible. The establishment has betrayed, is betraying, and will continue to betray any coalition made with the left. If Democrats fought Republicans with half the ferocity with which they fight leftists, this would be a very different country.

DingoBilly ,

So many dumb Americans here not voting. Cutting off your legs so you can hold the moral high ground. Moronic.

megopie ,

Why is the onus on the left? How come it’s never on moderates for being such poor coalition partners that knee cap their proposals at every opportunity?

DingoBilly ,

Why is the onus on the left to vote left to promote left values? Because that's how voting works?

I'm not sure how to answer that question. Reword it as "Why is the onus on the right to elect a right-wing candidate?" maybe to see.

megopie ,

Right now, voting for the current set of candidates will not support the values of the left, it will promote the values of the moderate middle. if the moderate middle wants to prevent another term of trump, they need to give real commitments to policy agendas that will convince disaffected voters to show up. Threatening them with another term of trump clearly is not working, telling them that they should be grateful for what they already got clearly is not working.

If the Democratic Party wants disaffected voters to show up, then the democrat establishment needs to work to earn those votes. If they do not then trump will win, and it will be as much their fault as the people who didn’t vote.

DingoBilly ,

Sure. But it's a two way street. Climate change is important but you don't realistically solve it by stopping everything coal powered tomorrow. You have to gradually introduce it.

I don't know if it's a younger generation thing, but they're not patient and demand change now when it's just not realistic. Change is glacially slow. Voting in something that's not ideal is better than voting in something completely opposite.

The more you allow that left or moderate side to win, the more the axis changes towards it, which is still a win if you're left/moderate as it moves it away from the right. It's this last bit some people don't understand.

megopie ,

Change is slow, and you will get none if politicians do not make concrete commitments. And we don’t get any concrete commitments from them unless they think they need them to win.

Voting is not enough, and only voting does not free one from complicity. Especially if the side one votes for loses because they refused to make commitments that convinced voters to show up for them. Right now, the democrats are not making commitments that are getting voters out. And condescending to other voters because you think they are naïve does not get voters out ether, if anything, it might push them away.

If we want to prevent trump we need to get the Democratic Party to make commitments that will get voters to show up. Not tell people they are dumb for demanding more from their government than “not being trump”.

maynarkh ,

I don't know how to tell you, but dude, your country (and many others) is literally on fire every year. Even if we did something very drastic, like keep up the COVID lockdowns, Florida is going to be flooded. The United States will lose towns, villages, cities, territory it will never recover. The country will be full of climate refugees. It is like a war where you can't shoot back. I don't know how else to put it.

How long have you been trying to reform healthcare? And it's still not getting better, is it? Only maybe "glacially". Trump's regressive changes weren't glacial. He undid half a century of alliances and trust in years. Sure, vote Biden, but voting Biden is not a complete solution, it's not even a band aid. It's just the saner half of the US trying to hide from the next bullet.

So no, glacial change - "slowly but surely" - won't cut it. We need radical change, right now, and maybe we will end up with something liveable in 25 years.

braxy29 ,

throughout reading this thread, what echoes in my mind over and over is this - "the perfect is the enemy of the good." and honestly, right now i'm defining "good" as "not-fascism," "not-Trump," "not the man who will burn it all down as quickly as possible."

yes, i'm hiding from the next bullet. i'm hiding myself, my family, my friends, my co-workers and clients. my choices are the man with the loaded gun who has TOLD us what to expect, and any other possible alternative.

for now, i happen to think this is GOOD ENOUGH, and those who would sacrifice that on principle have not really imagined what is very likely to happen next. i'm sorry i can't save the people of Gaza, but i can try to save those i know and love.

Cowbee ,

Biden isn't left, that's why they are asking why thr DNC feels entitled to Leftist votes while refusing to concede.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

The onus is on us all to keep democracy alive.

It is on us to take all available paths towards alleviating the situation. Voting is the easiest and least u can do. Past that, theres mutual aid and direct action. Take as many paths as u can, but any and all leftward movement must be embraced.

The "moderates" u mention are the future right wing of the country. The gop is on a sinking ship. Their base is dying (of old age and at twice the rate due to covid), and the youth lean increasingly left. Our time is upon us, but right now trump represents an existential threat to life as we know it. He is a hostile foreign agent and those paths open to us will suddenly close under him.

juicy ,

Why are you in here cosplaying as a leftist when you support the genocide?

https://midwest.social/comment/8554707:

“Support genocide” in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

Lol. Someone doesnt understand geopolitics.

We have an open trade agreement with israel. They want to buy, we say how much. I never said i supported it, but if ur curious ive been railing against the apartheid state for 15 years now simce back before i was a leftist. Doesnt change that there is no candidate thatd be capable of ending that policy on a whim.

hobbes_ ,

It is on both the moderates and the left? Because neither group is enough on its own to win?

You keep asking this question and I find it very hard to believe you don't already know the answer.

Masterblaster420 ,

who cares about placing blame? you sound like a kid crying to your mommy. JUST DO THE RIGHT THING GODDAMNIT.

A22546889 ,

Because of how you're acting guess which way my vote is going?

Grabthar ,

You aren't voting at all, comrade.

inb4_FoundTheVegan , (edited )
@inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world avatar

f there's a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.

Hey hi, it's me, your trans friend. And you need to put this energy towards protesting Biden instead of leftists. I honestly feel like you are low key getting trolled and missing the point?

Like, seriously, we all know "shithole countries" Trump would be worse on every single issue, including and especially Gaza. But it's six months till the election, PLENTLY of time for a course change by Biden. Absolutely a second Trump term scares the 💩 out of me. So i appreciate where you are coming from, but until it's November, I think pressing Dems and trusting leftists to do whats right day of is the most good y'all can do.

force ,

trusting leftists to do whats right

i can't trust leftists because leftists are stupid. look how they lost italy, the leftists splintered and refused to work together because of petty shit which allowed the right including literal fascists to take over the government. this is the same type of dumb stuff that happens everywhere with leftists, because of their "holier than thou" attitude.

i will not leave the election's outcome in the leftists' hands because they always fuck it up when that's the case. they always refuse to cooperate with the enemies of their enemy because they don't see them as left enough, despite it being the only option to not have their long-term goals permanently blocked off, and the country always devolves into diet fascism afterwards. it has lost us many nations throughout history, so no thanks.

Cowbee ,

This is actually straight up revisionism, it was the Liberals who sided with fascists, rather than working with Leftists to stop the fascists, that directly allowed for Hitler and Mussolini to come to power.

force ,

I'm not sure what you mean by "the Liberals" but I'm not referring to pre-WW2. I'm referring to right now. The current state of Italy. The one where leftists had the government, and then completely screwed up in the face of a rising right-wing threat because they decided they don't agree with some of the things the other leftists were doing.

Cowbee ,

Ah, fair. I am not as familiar with modern Italy, but it sounds like refusing to work together is a two-way street, though I would love to see an example of what you're specifically referring to.

force , (edited )

The easiest (although not best) example for Italy is the PM. The previous center-left politicians in office were by no means perfect PMs, but the left's infighting and the ensuing breakup of the coalition of various left and center-left parties caused Draghi to resign, and the next (and current) PM is Giorgia Meloni who is an actual fascist who has on multiple occasions reminisced of the good old days with Mussolini in charge and a good economy. Nowadays with hindsight people miss the preceding leftist PMs and think they were actually pretty good after all, but it's too late for that. The country has already started a tumble towards the right and it'd be extremely hard to get it out, especially considering that the left still is refusing to work together.

There were other factors, such as the left in Italy generally tending anti-Ukraine and the population's concerns about immigration, as well as the right focusing a lot on anti-LGBTQ rhetoric/paranoia (Italy is a very catholic nation so this was an effective strategy), but the most important factor and the ultimate killing blow was the left breaking apart.

Cowbee ,

There's definitely a lot more to it, than that. I'd have to research more, because historically it's always the Liberals who refuse to work with Leftists against fascists.

Kalysta ,

Just like now with a bunch if liberals filling up my feed with vote blue no matter who bullshit.

Benjamin Netanyahu himself could be running as the democratic nominee and they’d tell me he’s better than trump.

He isn’t. Netanyahu and trump are two peas in a pod.

knightly ,
@knightly@pawb.social avatar

Italy isn't real, it was made up by the House of Savoy to justify conquering adjacent city-states.

Syrc ,

There were other factors, such as the left in Italy generally tending anti-Ukraine

Wait, what do you mean? So far I think I’ve only seen some leftists be against sending weapons (which is still a stupid position to take considering the situation), but nothing explicitly anti-Ukraine and absolutely not the majority. Did I miss something?

makyo ,

Step 1: defeat Trump
Step 2: help reshape Democratic party

Because the fact is, if we don't do step 1 first, we'll have our work cut out for us the next four or more years just being back in 'The Resistance'. Which you know isn't going to make the Dems more liberal, it's going to pull them to the right as more dissatisfied Trump voters finally peel off.

On the other hand, the more resounding of a defeat we can dish out to the GQP and MAGA, the easier it will be to send them into the wilderness to regroup politically so we can focus all of our energies on the Democratic party.

Cowbee , (edited )

Not advocating for voting third party, but how do you genuinely plan on reshaping the democrat party, and how would this time be different, compared to the past?

LinkOpensChest_wav ,
@LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

This is my question too. I'm old (Gen X), and I've never seen the Democrats acting progressive. The last time I had hope was in 08 when I volunteered for the Obama campaign, only for him to out himself as yet another conservative wearing progressive clothes once he took office.

Cowbee ,

The correct answer is that politicians are not simply groups of "good" and "evil" people, but people acting in the interests of the US state, and by extension the wealthy Capitalists that guide it.

Democrats are not a party of positive, incremental change, even if that's how they position themselves. They act swiftly in the direction of liberalism, and only make concessions to leftists and progressives when they become threatening, not when leftists cooperate.

Waiting and voting harder for the least worst candidates just continues their existing trends, if the Dems had overwhelming support they would continue to do the bare minimum.

It's not a coincidence that the GOP is far more radically fascist, that's where they get their votes! That's why the GOP manages to do a lot of damage, because if they didn't, they would get tossed aside for another party. They cling on with barely enough support to occasionally get elected despite Democrat majority.

LinkOpensChest_wav ,
@LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I wish I could upvote this one more than once. This is spot on, I think.

Cowbee ,

Maybe Marx had some good ideas, that's all I'm saying, haha.

LinkOpensChest_wav ,
@LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I think "Marx had some good ideas" is a statement leftists of every ideology can agree on!

makyo ,

Sorry I wasn't clear - I'm saying if you care about reshaping the Dems, you do it after we defeat Trump.

There is no guarantee it will be different this time, that's politics. But giving up on it isn't an option - politics happens to us whether we are active or not. But if you're hoping for change, it'll be a lot harder to see if Trump gets reelected. I promise you that.

go_go_gadget ,

The moment Trump was defeated in 2020 liberal and moderates did exactly what they always do: demand priority over leftists and progressives in every policy disagreement and Biden was happy to oblige.

No. Moderate voters, liberal voters, the DNC, establishment Democrats and Biden will all reshape now or lose to Trump. Make a choice.

makyo ,

I'm sorry but this is basically the same argument that I got multiple others in this thread so instead of answering again, I'm going to ask you a question.

What exactly is y'alls game plan then? How do you think you'll benefit by punishing Biden and helping get Trump elected?

go_go_gadget ,

Your question attempts to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard than moderates and liberals.

What is the game plan of moderates, liberals, establishment Democrats and Biden? How do they think they'll benefit by refusing to make material compromises with leftists and progressives?

Cowbee ,

That same line was told during 2020, 2016, 2008, 2000, and so forth. Where is the leftist concession? Where is the Democratic party being pushed? How are you planning on achieving change?

makyo ,

You're basically just repeating yourself now. Like it or not, you're parroting the played out lines that the Trumpist want us to repeat to strengthen their hand.

Politics isn't easy but 'burn it down because they're not catering to me' is not a responsible vote this year.

Cowbee ,

When will it be time? How do you plan on shaping dems? You're repeating yourself here.

makyo ,

I don't know what you're even asking - how do I personally plan to shape the party? If I could wave a magic wand I would but obviously it's something that is shaped by the collective and we all need to be engaged in the various areas we are passionate about.

This 'cater to me or else' sort of nihilism is the laziest sort of attitude and I get really tired of seeing it in liberal circles. I can tell you're passionate and are probably very politically active in your own ways, but so many people seem to think that withholding their vote will sove the problem and that it then somehow absolves them of having to do anything else.

Cowbee ,

You're wrong on quite a few things here.

How can a leftist meaninfully convince a liberal Capitalist party to move leftward, rather than continuing liberalism? Seriously speaking, if I am a leftist, and I want Leftist change, how do you think I should go about doing that?

It's not nihilism, it's not liberalism, and it's not "cater to me or else," that's pure condescension. I am also not planning on witholding my vote, I want genuine leftist change.

Why does promising to vote for liberalism, a right wing ideology, help Leftists unless the DNC feels threatened by a lack of progressive support and thus concedes?

makyo ,

If you want leftist change you keep doing the things you are hopefully already doing - joining political groups you are aligned with, making calls, donating, running for office, getting your friends involved, join a union or help start one, etc. etc. And you realize that it isn't going to happen overnight - it may not even happen in your lifetime. It's not easy or magic, especially with the things you seem to care about on the further left of the spectrum. That's going to be a steep hill to climb.

Cowbee ,

Do you honestly believe that the left can vote socialism into existence within a liberal Capitalist framework?

Kalysta ,

You told me this last fucking election and nothing has changed.

I lost my reproductive freedoms

I fear for my wife’s life whenever we have to travel out of state - she’s trans

Clarance fucking Thomas is threatening to undo gay marriage.

The democrats have done NOTHING for me. And instead i’m watching half of them cheerlead a fucking genocide of brown people in the middle east

How are they different from republicans? How is biden different than trump? He’s trying to pass trump’s immigration plan while letting Bibi murder his neighbors.

Nah fam. I’m officially giving up. People like you who refuse to hold democrats to account have made life worse for everyone.

makyo ,

I'm sorry but you are blaming the wrong people for all of this

bigMouthCommie ,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

no, no... i think they're onto something

makyo ,

It's clear y'all are trolls at this point

Syrc ,

This is a really contrived hypothesis and probably wishful thinking considering the current state of the world, but hear me out:

You know how the Overton window gets shifted? Rightwing voters grew a lot in the US and Democrats had to get more to the right to appeal to them and not keep losing.

We just need to force the reverse. If Democrats keep winning elections Republicans will be forced to put out a candidate that’s more palatable to leftists sooner or later. Someone who isn’t a literal movie villain. At that point, Democrats will lose their only selling point (being the alternative to Satan himself), and they will have to actually push for leftist policies to get people to vote.

This can only happen if Democrats win a lot of times in a row though. Even one Republican win will ensure them that they can keep pushing fascists and have a chance to win.

Cowbee ,

The thing I generally disagree with is the idea that Democrats would move leftward, and not just further into Liberalism. Even Social Democracies in the Nordic countries are seeing a decrease in the welfare state, just like Reagan did with FDR-era policies.

go_go_gadget ,

We defeated Trump in 2020. Nothing changed and Biden spent his entire term catering to liberals and moderates.

Xin_shill ,

And republicans and fascists and corporations and Wall Street.. hmmm but he did almost cancel a lot of student debt, but actual trying to cancel most people’s student debt was “too high”. No cracking down on predatory lending or anything. Plenty of other countries have free college, but its just too damn hard in the worlds richest country, you know jack.

Earn the vote Biden.

joenforcer ,

He can't do it because Congress is too divided because you didn't fucking vote.

go_go_gadget ,

Who didn't vote? What senate races were reasonably within reach that people didn't show up for? Same question for the house.

gmtom ,
@gmtom@lemmy.world avatar

Me when I don't understand what the house and senate are.

makyo ,

Sorry if I am missing your point - did you think he'd cater to conservatives?

go_go_gadget , (edited )

Lol! I expected him to make material compromises with the millions of progressives and leftists who held their nose and voted for him. The fact that you seem completely unaware of these factions Democrats depend on to win elections is just... a perfect example of how out of touch liberal and moderate voters are. They can't win elections without our votes. They need to start acting like it.

makyo ,

Okay so you're saying he isn't liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but I would argue that he's also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.

And while we should absolutely hold his feet to the fire to pull him further left, saying "earn my vote or else" with the 'or else' being Trump, is not a very practical threat. Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.

If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don't vote for Biden this year.

Cowbee ,

How has Biden meaningfully moved America towards some form of worker ownership of the Means of Production, and away from Capitalist ownership of the Means of Production?

When will the Democrats move to the left? Will it be next election? What about the one after that? Why has this same line been tossed for decades, prevent fascism now, leftism later?

I ask this as a leftist that will probably hold my nose and vote for Biden: why on Earth do you imagine the DNC will ever move leftwards, instead of remaining liberal right-wingers?

go_go_gadget ,

Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but

I'm not trying to tell you what to call yourself but if you spend all your time and energy arguing against leftists instead of moderates and liberals what exactly makes you left? Call yourself whatever you like but your actions are indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal.

I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.

🙄Oh please, do tell me what material leftist victory was made by Biden. A bunch of corporate handouts? Not leftist. Passing the IRA? That was the BBB stripped of everything leftists and progressives were excited about. Maybe you're so delusional you think blocking a rail strike is a leftist victory. Or maybe you think shipping weapons to a country committing genocide is some kind of leftist victory. Or raising the defense budget. Or forcing federal workers back to the office. Or setting Yellen and Powell on a war path against American workers.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.

The stuff I care about was already held back four years with Biden.

Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.

Yeah I've heard this plenty. You realize this cuts both ways right? Moderate and liberal voters refusing to compromise with leftists and progressives is every bit the same. Why are you trying to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard?

makyo ,

I'm arguing with other leftists because I have hope that I can help them make the right choice strategically while countering the rampant rightwing disinfo which like it or not, that's what you're parroting.

go_go_gadget ,

Again, you're indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal. You talk like one, you act like one, you vote like one. Regardless of what you believe you're not doing anything that would accomplish anything we're fighting for.

makyo ,

Abstaining from voting this election will drive the leftist cause backwards so not accomplishing anything would be much preferrable.

go_go_gadget ,

Four years of Biden has driven us backwards. If moderates and liberals refuse to compromise with us now when they themselves believe democracy is at stake what does that tell you? They never will.

I am done propping up their trash procorporate candidates. If they aren't willing to fight fascism head on then it's not a choice between fascism and democracy it's a choice between fascism now or later.

I choose now. You're free to make your own choice.

Kalysta ,

And you will make the exact same argument next election. And the one after that. And the one after that.

Ultragigagigantic ,
@Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

Fuck that, pass electoral reform so people can vote 3rd party with no spoiler effect and leave these dinosaur political parties in the past where they belong.

makyo ,

Do you think it'll be easier or harder to get electoral reform passed if Trump is elected?

WraithGear ,
@WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

I think that the threat of losing to trump is the most powerful leverage progressives and leftists have at getting actual reformation of the party, and this election is the democrats race to lose.

So right now everyone who is pissed at Biden or the democrats, should be letting their anger known and be as loud as possible about it

go_go_gadget ,

Agreed.

Either moderate and liberal voters along with establishment Democrats and Biden make a big pivot or this will go down in history as a lesson: do not fuck with labor.

WraithGear ,
@WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

Except step one is repeated every. damn. time.

Its never time to reshape the Democratic Party. If the democrats win, it will be too early to fix the Democratic Party for millions of reasons. And four years pass and every campaign promise is ignored, and all of a sudden it’s back to 1. Beat the new threat to “democracy” 2. Fix the Democratic Party… ad nauseam forever.

makyo ,

It's never too early to help shape the Democratic party, absolutely do it now. But it's a long process and if you can't see how it has changed in the last 20 years already I don't know what to tell you. And beating Trump is priority #1 if we're going to continue on that path.

Syrc ,

We can’t do that if people don’t vote actual leftist in the primaries because “commies won’t win the general”.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

Bc boomers have strangeholded our govt for decades. Its convenient that now that theyre dying off this is the shit we get to try and elect the actual genocidal maniac and not the dinosaur keeping to the same foreign policy the US has kept for 70 yrs in order to keep our other allies from thinking we will abandon them the way we did the Kurds or Ukraine.

ZombiFrancis ,

a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide

Demanding people vote for genocide as a lesser of two evils is where we are at now.

RizzRustbolt ,

We need to make it personal.

Vote for Biden so I can keep my job.

roguetrick ,

It really is something when you can put yourself into that position and trying to whip votes on this platform of all places instead of calling for a violent revolution.

ArmokGoB ,

Either vote for harm reduction or watch as the former president implements a final solution.

anticolonialist ,

How is genocide harm reduction? Is Trump gonna genocide harder or something?

GnomeKat ,
@GnomeKat@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Is Trump gonna genocide harder or something?

I mean.. yes... yes he would definitely support escalation of the killings. He has stated he thinks they aren't going far enough so trump would 100% just encourage full genocide openly

Biden is at least turning on this issue, though obviously it's way too little and too late.. but he is at least reachable and is now saying there needs to be a ceasefire.

Is biden doing enough? Fuck no.

Should he step down and let other dems run? I think yes... I would feel so much better if we had a candidate who hasn't been supporting this for as long as biden has.

But would trump be worse on this issues? Absolutely things can get so much worse..

anticolonialist ,

Biden isnt turning on anything, the same day his UN reps proposed the fake ceasefire he supplied more money and bombs.

ieatpillowtags ,

Yes he would in fact genocide harder, maybe you should pay attention to what he says.

ieatpillowtags ,

It’s a sad state of affairs, but as of now what other choice is there?

ZombiFrancis ,

Think about it for a moment: people are opposing a genocide. Do you think if Biden called for a ceasefire or ended his support for a genocidal regime it would cost him votes?

People sure acting like that is the case the way people are opposing genocide as a valid electoral issue.

So shit, right now?: Bully the everloving fuck out of Biden and anyone supporting the genocide Israel is conducting in Gaza. Fuck them and their genocide. Make it an electoral issue. See what influence can be made between now and voting day, like a properly engaged member of a political system.

KinglyWeevil ,

Whenever I see people bemoaning the system, (which I agree is fucked, overall) I always wonder if they've bothered to write/call/harass legislators? Because it's sometimes surprising how much an angry person can accomplish when they decide to be a problem.

I set up targeted harassment of state legislators on reddit and twitter and managed to get weed legalized after it died in committee in the preceding five years.

Syrc ,

Do you think if Biden called for a ceasefire or ended his support for a genocidal regime it would cost him votes?

I mean, at this point, maybe? I’m confident while probably both very small groups, the pro-genocide Biden voters are more than the anti-genocide Trump voters. Someone who votes Republican in modern elections doesn’t seem like they would be concerned for the wellbeing of black people on the other side of the planet.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

If Biden ceased supporting israel, our remaining allies would be all the more disillusioned with our fickle ass nature and our soft powers would plummet.

Guarantee you, if we had a president Sanders, 70 senators would be tripping over themselves to pass Israeli aid and overturning any of his executive orders while calling him an antisemite.

AFaithfulNihilist ,
@AFaithfulNihilist@lemmy.world avatar

You can vote for The guy who says Tut Tut to the genocidal madman or the guy that says, "finish the job".

There are also other issues at play. They are both a vote for genocide but one of them would like to bring that here there and everywhere!

gmtom ,
@gmtom@lemmy.world avatar

Remember Biden isn't actually the one doing the genocide. That's Netanyahu and the other Israeli politicians. Let's not delete their blame by including Biden who has been putting in /some/ effort to stop it (not enough imo, but undeniably some). And remember that even if he stopped weapons shipments the day of the invasion, it wouldn't have changed the outcome at all.

ZombiFrancis ,

Israel has always been days or weeks away from running out of ammunition and bombs. If shipments stop the bombings would stop. They've reupped and reupped and Biden even bypassed Congress to continue supplying bombs.

anticolonialist ,

Remember Charles Manson wasnt the one that actually did any killings, therefore he must be innocent. Biden is providing the money and weapons to kill, therefore he is responsible, and has done nothing to stop it.

ieatpillowtags ,

See you’re just being factually incorrect now.

flying_sheep ,
@flying_sheep@lemmy.ml avatar

Wow what a horrible take. Just think about why this comparison is complete bullshit for a second and you'll see.

Maggoty ,

He's completely enabling it. The UN would have already stepped in if we weren't blocking anything above saying the words, "Please Stop."

The criminal justice system recognizes this. It charges the driver, the lookout, and the trigger puller with Felony Murder.

ieatpillowtags ,

The UN can’t “step in” regardless, plus we let the cease fire resolution pass this time so if they could step in we’re not blocking it.

Maggoty ,

We let a non-binding resolution pass. The UN is absolutely capable of stepping in, from the Korean War to the Ivory Coast. There's even movies about it.

gmtom ,
@gmtom@lemmy.world avatar

The fuck you mean the UN would have "stepped in"?

Like you think the UN is going to send troops to stop Isreal??? Or you think that Israel will decide its going to comply with a resolution for the first time?

The criminal justice system recognizes this. It charges the driver, the lookout, and the trigger puller with Felony Murder.

Apples to orsnges. Do gun shop owners get charged with murder for selling guns to people who use them to commit murder? No ofc course not.

Maggoty ,

I'm talking specifically about him blocking action by the UN. And yes, Israel is not special. If they ignore a binding resolution to stop then the UN will deploy.

Oh and yes, states do charge gun shop clerks if they knowingly sell a gun to be used in a crime or knowingly make an illegal sale, such as the Leahy Law the administration is taking great pains to ignore.

EndlessNightmare ,

As I see it, the genocide is not up for a vote since neither candidate will stop it. It's the other issues that are up for vote.

They've decided to do genocide regardless of what the voters want.

ZombiFrancis ,

They've decided to do genocide regardless of what the voters want.

That may be what they decided, but that is never an argument against fighting genocide. There is still a window of opportunity for that course to change, and the dire nature of this election is a part of it.

Masterblaster420 ,

you live in a bubble. i don't think the majority of americans sees it the way you do. i see it the way you do, but you shouldn't assume that just because your personal social media feed is pro-palestine that it's unanimous across the US.

InternetUser2012 ,

This will be the most important election in the history of the united states. You have two choices, Dictator, or Democracy. A no vote is a vote AGAINST Democracy.

OsrsNeedsF2P ,

Lmao typical DNC advertisement regurgitation. This election is not 'the most important election in history'.

Third party of bust

bigfoot ,

Oh wow you're the guy from OPs meme

OsrsNeedsF2P ,

We looking at different memes, or should I clarify my stance further?

Vote for third party or bust. A vote for Democrats or Republicans is the same path we're already on, and nobody likes this path

nxdefiant ,

You're gonna get Bust. Vote third party if you want, that's your right (assuming you're a U.S. citizen of course), but a vote for third party is lowering the bar of victory for the worst human alive to hold that office.

You don't have to understand the consequences of your actions, but that's what they are. More genocide, foot on the accelerator towards climate catastrophe, pouring gasoline on what's left of women's rights and setting them on fire.

It's easy to write "fuck literally everyone except the enemies of my enemies" on a piece of paper and throw it in the trash, I don't understand why you'd go through the trouble of voting if that's all you want to do. There are FAR more effective methods of protest.

go_go_gadget ,

a vote for third party is lowering the bar of victory for the worst human alive to hold that office.

Then tell Biden to stop being a dumbass.

nxdefiant ,

If I had that kind of access I certainly would.

go_go_gadget ,

Sounds like U.S. democracy has already failed then.

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

You may as well be saying "MAGA or bust".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_splitting

bigfoot ,

MAGA is "bust". OsrsNeedsF2P is saying he is ok with MAGA because he is personally wealthy enough to weather the storm.

Krauerking ,

Yeah that's projection. Hurt people, hurt people. They might just be downtrodden and view a change of suffering to be good enough to support.

The new suffering coming is just a concept and not real, so it's less painful in the now even if it might not be in the future. But that yearning for change is basic and people will support all kinds of stuff if they think it will change their current suffering.

Xanis ,

How do you expect Trump to do as President if he wins?

go_go_gadget ,

You realize Trump is just the tip of the iceberg right? It's not like once he no longer runs the MAGA crowd will disappear. What's your plan for addressing it? Because we held our noses and elected Biden in 2020 and all he's done is fucked around for 3 years.

Xanis ,

Oooh no you don't. You can't do the shitty Manager thing and try to toss this back at me. Answer your own question.

go_go_gadget ,

We've had lots of plans, there were lots of good candidates in the 2020 primaries. They were all rejected by moderates and liberals. We had the BBB, it was rejected by moderates and liberals. We had the rail strike, it was rejected by moderates and liberals. We have proposed lots of plans. They have all been rejected. The onus is not on us to continue providing plans. Moderates and liberals need our votes to win. They don't like our plans but refuse to provide any viable plans of their own.

I'm done making plans. If moderate and liberals want my vote they need to demonstrate it. If Biden wants my vote he needs to demonstrate it. Compromise with us or lose to MAGA. Make a choice.

Mikesomething ,

I hear this every single election.

Dems - "democracy is at stake! THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION IN YOUR LIFE"

Me - *Holds nose and votes for the lesser evil"

Dems - "thanks guys that was close"
Proceeds to sit around with a thumb in their collective asshole for 4 years.

...

Dems - "Democracy is at stake! REALLY guys - THIS is the most important election ever!"

It's fucking exhausting. If the Dems really wanted people to come out and vote, they would spend less time begging for our votes, and more time representing our collective interests.

multifariace ,

They don't sit around at all! They are out there working hard. Suckling the teet of major donors. Pretending they oppose the Republican party.

Dinsmore ,

You'd think if they really believed their own bs that democracy was at stake, they would do everything to court votes in swing states, such as, idk, the enormous Arab population in Michigan? Biden clearly prioritizes dead Gazan babies over "democracy."

go_go_gadget ,

Right? Why isn't Biden standing in front of a podium begging leftists and progressives to save him? Is his pride worth more than democracy?

mojo_raisin ,

I hear this every single election.

  1. Because as we move into the future with a larger population and worse environmental destruction, the stakes become greater.

  2. Because we've been on the verge of losing our democracy for a couple decades now. I'm almost 50, we've been on the verge since the presidency was taken from Al Gore. It was not this way before that in my lifetime.

You think one election is going to take a nation on the brink to being in safe harbors? This is a battle for democracy that occurs over multiple elections, why is that so hard to understand? You can only repeat what your friends say?

go_go_gadget ,

Biden refused to face fascism head on during his entire term. Instead he decided to focus entirely on pleasing moderates and liberals and burning progressives and leftists at every opportunity. This is Biden's fault.

mojo_raisin ,

Ya, so to punish Biden lets allow an actual fascist to take power and live under that for the rest of our lives. Genius.

go_go_gadget ,

If you focused all this energy you're using to fight your fellow working class Americans against pro-corporate trash candidates and the people who vote for them we'd be in a much better position right now.

MonkRome ,

Oh please, this is everyone's fault, one man doesn't rule alone. We are failing at every level, in every state, in every county, in every city, in nearly every household. As long as people are too comfortable and lazy to take action every day that is NOT election day, election day will continue to be disappointing.

go_go_gadget ,

I agree the presidency isn't all that matters. But it does acutely demonstrate the problem. White boomers dominate the party and prevent any legitimate efforts from being made. If you want to point fingers at the household level start with white boomers.

gmtom ,
@gmtom@lemmy.world avatar

I hear this every single election.

Yeah, weird, it's almost like we've been on a slow march towards fascism for decades and as republicans get more and more radicalised they vote for worse and worse candidates as their nominee every election.... or something.

go_go_gadget ,

we’ve been on a slow march towards fascism for decades

Yes. Including the last three years. See the problem?

gmtom ,
@gmtom@lemmy.world avatar

Yes?? Idk what point you're trying to make here.

go_go_gadget ,

Procorporate Democrats like Biden cannot save us from fascism.

MonkRome ,

Neither can actual fascists, at least one is a slower process. What matters is what we do with the time in between elections. I'll happily vote for a moderate wet fart like Biden so I have 4 more years to educate, 4 more years to inch policy my direction at the local level, 4 more years to work with activists in my community, 4 more years to build bridges of understanding with people I disagree with in the hope for a better future. Giving in to accelerationists just takes away those 4 years entirely, ending any hope for that better future. Soon 70% of these fascists will die of old age, and then maybe we can translate our action and resistance into policy.

go_go_gadget ,

at least one is a slower process

Sounds like you're acknowledging the choice is between fascism now or fascism later yes?

Soon 70% of these fascists will die of old age, and then maybe we can translate our action and resistance into policy.

That's not what will happen. The moment progressives and leftists begin dominating primaries moderates and liberals will stop showing up in general elections. You'll have the same problem we have today. If moderates and liberals actually value democracy they need to start being open to making material compromises with progressives and leftists. If they won't now, they won't ever and if they won't ever it's already over.

Focus your anger at liberals and moderates.

tswiftchair ,

Election of 1860: am i joke to u?

InternetUser2012 ,

There won't be another election if tRump wins. Komrad

go_go_gadget ,

Does Biden know that?

Kalysta ,

Every fucking election in my lifetime has been “the most important in history”

You all have cried wolf too many times. If you get eaten, it’s liberals fault.

InternetUser2012 ,

Aye Komrad

go_go_gadget ,

If it's so important then why isn't Biden doing everything he can to compromise with leftists and progressives? Dude should be standing at a podium begging us like "Please! I'm sorry I blocked the rail strike I won't do it again. Federal workers can continue working remotely. I won't raise the defense budget again. I will fight to block weapon shipments to Israel. Please help me."

Or is this democracy not worth that to him?

InternetUser2012 ,

Lol, troll.

go_go_gadget ,

I'm really not. The fact that it's a legitimate question under these circumstances shows just how pathetic this whole situation is. As Jon Stewart said, if the enemy is at the gates why isn't Biden taking it seriously?

alcoholicorn , (edited )

Why are you trying to pressure people to vote for the guy facilitating genocide, instead of for Biden to stop facilitating genocide?

The only explanations I can come up with are either that you support what he is doing, or on some level, you understand we have no influence on policy and so trying to get Biden to do things that will get people to vote for him is a waste of time.

This same shit happened when Obama did fuckall about Bush's policies and endlessly compromised. Of course, the voters were blamed when Obama lost the house and senate, and in 2016 too.

Twentytwodividedby7 ,

Do you honestly think Trump would even try to negotiate a ceasefire?

ramenshaman ,

Trump will do whatever people pay him the most to do as long as it's not upholding his oath of office.

imnotfromkaliningrad ,
@imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml avatar

obviously trump wouldnt do anything better, but he couldnt possibly do any worse, since there isnt anything more vile than literal genocide! if anything trump is the harm reduction candidate, since he will unintentionally accelerate the inevitable decline of the fascist us empire.

death to america

death to israel

The_Che_Banana ,
@The_Che_Banana@beehaw.org avatar

OP explicitly states a vote for Biden isnt a vote for genocide.

Regardless, Trump would be an absolute nightmare for the Palestinians...so your argument is not in good faith and just want to invoice emotional responses.

OP recognizes the system there is right now in the US is badly flawed, but since nobody did shit about fixing it these last 4 years you have a choice of pinching your nose and swallowing bad medicine or never have a voice again.

alcoholicorn ,

Israel is already getting all they want from the US, you really can't call a side participating in ethnic cleansing a lesser evil, we're already at 100% evil.

But this misses the point, to even be posting this shows that you have no hope that Biden will stop the genocide. If you expected the democrats to listen to the people whose votes they need, you'd be telling us he's gonna do the thing we all want and stop the genocide any day now, and begging the dems to not fuck this up.

The_Che_Banana ,
@The_Che_Banana@beehaw.org avatar

You can make the same argument as a christofascist about abortion, they consider all forms of birth control genocide and are single issue voters.

Politicians, like corporations, will never change unless forced to, I really dont expect anything from the democratic party except the status quo until enough incremental changes at the local and state level finally start pulling the countey back to the left...the other option is absolutely worse.

Being a single issue voter is ridiculous, but you do you.

alcoholicorn ,

The christofascists's representatives fall over each other trying to show how christian and fascist they are, implement the policies the christofascists want by any means, and in return the christofacists vote for them.

The democrats either do fuckall or what the republicans want, and then tell us better things aren't possible or it's our fault for not voting harder.

Guess which one is a more effective electoral strategy?

Thief_of_Crows ,

Well in that case, I'm explicitly stating that a vote for Biden is a vote for a dog taking a crap right in your mouth...

That's not how it works, if you vote for the guy doing a genocide, you are voting for genocide.

I am highly doubtful trump would be worse. All his rhetoric is about ending the conflict, and he was significantly more peaceful than every other president dating back to Reagan at least. He got us out of Afghanistan and didn't start a new war, unlike every other president since Reagan.

Balinares ,

I am highly doubtful trump would be worse.

Lol.

Vent ,

🙈

HappyFrog ,

Thinking Trump won't be worse just shows your privilege. There are thousands of immigrants that can't survive being deported, millions of women that will lose their rights, and countless lgbt people that might get murdered.

Just because your life is unaffected by who is in power doesn't mean you can throw every body else under the bus.

The_Che_Banana ,
@The_Che_Banana@beehaw.org avatar

A well thought out, succinct, and highly intelligent comment.

Leate_Wonceslace , (edited )

People need to understand that it's possible to vote against genocide.

No, it doesn't matter that he's an active participant in the apparatus that's creating the genocide, because if he's in office there's less genocide. Which is the important part, and pretending otherwise is sophistry. If you abstain from voting, you are increasing the likelihood of more genocide and if you discourage others from voting, you are an active participant in the overall social apparatus that is probabilistically increasing the amount of genocide.

The utility calculation is dead simple: more votes for Biden in key states makes more genocide less likely, and discouraging people from voting for Biden makes more genocide more likely. Therefore, discouraging people from voting for Biden is a pro-genocide strategy and voting for Biden in battleground states is an anti-genocide strategy. I live in a solid blue state, so I reserve the right to vote third party, but I will also encourage other people to vote for Biden.

You should vote for Biden unless you live in a solid blue state, and even then it's not a bad idea.

Edit: grammar correction

Mirshe ,

Even if you're in a solid blue state, vote for Biden. Because you don't know if it's your vote that pushes your state over that line.

Leate_Wonceslace ,

I think your stance on the issue is entirely reasonable.

Ferrous ,

The endgame of your utility calculation is genocidal. 30 years from now, I suspect you'll still be blasting this "vote blue no matter who" nonsense when the choice is between a dem supporting 5 genocides and a repub supporting 10 genocides. You've been anchor biased hard as fuck.

Regalia ,

In your hypothetical 30 years in the future scenario, this would still be a "more genocide" and "less genocide" pick.
We should never have genocide but there's no way to express that in the US binary voting system, so the choice would have to be tactical.

What do you propose instead?

nomous ,

Let's suppose there are going to be genocides, what's better, 5 or 10?

Ferrous ,

Thank you for defining anchor bias in such a succinct comment.

nomous ,

Thanks for not answering a very simple question.

joenforcer ,

What's your plan that makes the endgame not genocidal? Remember to make it fit reality.

Ferrous ,

You say "make it fit reality", but why do I feel like what you really mean is "make sure it does not at all challenge US hegemony".

If your ecocidal political project whose institutions were devised a blink ago by 30 year old slavers starts going genocidal, your project has lost the right to exist. To put it plainly, I think we all have a duty to start thinking about what dismantling the genocidal US empire would look like: reading marx, getting armed, building networks, embracing anti-capitalism, and preparing for this country's undeniably inevitable backslide into fascism.

Syrc ,

reading marx, getting armed, building networks, embracing anti-capitalism, and preparing for this country’s undeniably inevitable backslide into fascism.

Voting Biden doesn’t prevent you from doing this, you know. Rather, it would probably make it easier.

Leate_Wonceslace ,

I'm a transhumanist; my endgame is the abolition of all hardships including involuntary death. I want as many as possible among the those alive today to experience the universe beyond the fading of the last stellar remnants. That means clawing and fighting in every way I can and know how to allow as many people alive now to continue living. That means less genocide is better than more genocide, which in turn means that the immediate goal is making a Biden victory as likely as possible as I prepare more long-term projects. The long-term projects eliminate genocide. The Short term projects mitigate genocide. More successful short term projects increases the likelihood of more successful long-term projects.

In short: it is incredibly small-minded, presumptuous, and uncharitable of you to assume that I think voting is the only part of this massive game. Fuck off.

Xoriff ,

Wow how edgy. I don't like either candidate so I'll protest-stay-home. As if not voting is a form of protest.

Actually I'm legitimately curious. Where did that idea come from? Where did you get the idea that voting = endorsement.

If you were stranded in the wilderness and your options were to eat bug1 or bug2, would you choose to starve to death because "well, I just don't want people to think that I enjoy eating cockroach". Get over yourself and your childish mindset. Choosing not to participate is still making a choice.

Maybe when the maga fanatics come for your lgbt+ friends and family you'll think differently. Or maybe not. I don't know you or how comfortable you are with the maga end-game.

Masterblaster420 ,

Let us not forget how much Trump hates environmental regulation. He will auction off America's treasures for whoever sticks enough money in his pocket. Biden has done a pretty decent job of maintaining the old guard mentality of preservation and conservation (as imperfect as that may be).

I wish more people cared about the environment.

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