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Excrubulent , (edited )
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

EDIT: I should've read the article, but I'm taking the L and leaving this up with a strikethrough. The phrasing "after" in the headline definitely creates the wrong impression here. As for what this says about people, I guess we'll have to see if the other ten whistleblowers still testify.

And if you think it's too much to assume Boeing killed these two people, that's the wrong question. It matters more whether as a fellow whistleblower it's reasonable to worry about whether Boeing killed them, and I think it is.

Also Boeing definitely killed the first guy at least. "If I die, it's not suicide." - man who "committed suicide". WTAF.

If you ever hear anyone talking about how humans suck and we're all terrible and will definitely destroy ourselves, just think about the fact that killing whistleblowers was quickly followed by more whistleblowers. Not just lone heros, but ten fucking people said, "hey, fuck you, are you really gonna kill me too?" knowing that the answer could well be "yes".

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

unexposedhazard ,

There is plenty of evidence of foul play you smartass. They willingly risked lives over many years and are still currently flying many planes with defective unsafe parts. Going from that to assasination is not a big leap.

Multiple of the whistleblowers and their colleagues have also independently said that their workplace was directly and deliberately sabotaged in order to continue using defective parts.

Yes the last one doesnt really look like a typical assasination but it doesnt matter in the slightest if it was or not.

woop_woop ,

Well...the first dude did say something about Boeing killing whistleblowers and the bravery of others to step up in defiance of that.

So that whole line of thinking is conspiracy theory stuff with no real proof and it is being parroted here. Granted, usually the assassination stuff is usually tongue in cheek, but the top comment seems a bit crazy.

unexposedhazard ,

I agree that calling it "killing whistleblowers" is a bit too early, but for the point that the top comment was making, it doesnt actually matter.
Because his point was about the bravery of the other whistleblowers coming out and for that it doesnt matter if they actually got killed or not.

The 10 other whistleblowers are brave because there is a good chance that at least one of the whistleblowers was killed. They are still brave even if it turns out that the dead ones died of natural causes or suicide.

woop_woop ,

If the "bravery" and admiration comes against the idea of assassination, then it completely matters. Idk why you're hand waving the nonsense here

unexposedhazard ,

If the whistleblowers truly believe that the previous ones were assassinated, then they are brave for speaking out. They might be stupid, foolish, whatever, but they would be even more stupid if they didnt consider the possiblity of it being true.

Intent is what matters here not what is actually the case. This is obvious when it comes to law. For example if a judge decides that you truly believed that your life was in danger in a situation and that you had to act in self defense, you can usually not be sentenced for murder, even if it turns out that your life wasnt in danger after all.

Really this is a grammatical framing problem, but i think its totally fair to call these people "brave" either way, because even if their lives arent in danger, then at least their livelihood is.

woop_woop ,

1: I wholeheartedly believe being a whistleblower is a courageous and brave act. Full stop.

2: drawing conclusions as to why these people decided to speak up when they did without hearing it from them is nonsense.

3: assuming and repeating a John Gresham novel from news articles between corporations and their whistleblowers is not only buying into a conspiracy theory, but is also parroting it.

4: partaking in these conspiratorial shenanigans helps no one and isn't something to be waved away as harmless - otherwise, what's the difference here and qanon?

parpol ,

Guy who said "If I die, it is not suicide" dies of suicide right before important court date, and perfectly healthy and active person suddenly succumbs to rare antibiotics-resistant infection.

They just happened to work at the same company and die right before they could testify on the same thing.

This not being foul play is less likely than a global conspiracy.

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

Tbf the evidence for the second person is not strong - that stuff does legit happen.

But the first guy? Damn! That's enough right there.

Tryptaminev ,

Well isn't there a ruling in aircraft design and safety, that you calculate the probability of a certain failure and judge by its reoccurence if it was just random, or more than likely systematic?

I think i read this in context to the two MAX planes crashing in the exact same way. The first one was ruled as maybe just being some very very freak thing to happen, but it happening twice made it entirely implausible to be without systematic cause.

And well now it is happening twice in a few years with Boeing that weird things happen twice in a row with little time in between in relation to critical security flaws.

just_another_person ,

Again, a dozen whistleblowers now, and 2 died fairly quickly after coming out.

gregorum ,
@gregorum@lemm.ee avatar

*after agreeing to testify

ulterno ,
@ulterno@lemmy.kde.social avatar

Maybe Boeing will learn from their mistakes and go for using their relatives as leverage or tarnishing their reputation by framing them with treason instead.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

Well isn’t there a ruling in aircraft design and safety, that you calculate the probability of a certain failure and judge by its reoccurence if it was just random, or more than likely systematic?

It sounds like neither of us know the answer to that, so I choose not to comment on that matter.

I think i read this in context to the two MAX planes crashing in the exact same way.

But how does that apply? One guy was a "suicide", the other was bacteria - you just said it yourself, the metric only works if they crash "in the exact same way", therefore by your own words, this seems to not apply?

There is a natural human bias to want to "know" things. Sometimes we even make shit up out of desperation to fill that void, but the more honest way (but HARD to do, emotionally, as in it seriously goes against the grain of our pattern-finding brain's natural instinctual algorithms) is to simply say "I do not know the answer here". Please don't misunderstand me as saying that it is likely that the second guy was not killed - that would be 100% tangential to what I am trying to convey!

Rather, I am saying that the first guy looks to have been Epstein-ed, but we don't know enough yet about the second guy. Could you imagine someone sent to kill him, and having a whole plan in place so that he wouldn't even make it home but rather be taken care of in the car on the way there, but then he dies in his hospital bed first -> do you still get paid!?:-P Asking the important questions here!!:-D

But again, what happened to the first guy is already enough to know that some shady shit is going on. And yeah, that should make us think twice about the second guy... but having done so, I think that we just don't know enough there to make a firm determination like we could for the first guy, without additional evidence. Which does not absolve Boeing one iota for being so shitty for the last few years.

Tryptaminev ,

I agree, that we cannot rule either death to be an assassination by itself. But their distinct occurrence in this context, e.g. that they prevent whistleblowers from testifying warrants an in depth investigation into both of them. In particular given the circumstances it is sketchy if Police or other officials are eager to close the case and rule it as non assassinations, without actually analyzing what was going on.

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

I don't know the relevant laws there - but I am certain that an autopsy would have been done? Beyond that, what more could be done? If that means a more expensive autopsy, then yeah they should do that - even Boeing might agree on that point, to help absolve them, even if they did somehow give the bacteria to the guy, but like if they were confident that it could not be traced to them in that manner.

Speaking of, even if they were guilty in this second case, that's a very different thing than someone being able to prove it. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a foundational bedrock principle in the USA, and we cannot simply throw that away without losing something precious.

And with them being military contractors, they probably have classified status to where local police can't just go subpoenaing their records willy nilly. I could be wrong though. Then again, if they are used to dealing with the likes of e.g. literal Russian spies, then surely they would be smart enough to not leave a paper trail on something like this to begin with?

But the first guy should already be enough to start an investigation. The second guy... I dunno what that one means, maybe yes but also might not be.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

Tbf, you did come out fairly condescending and combative, telling people what to do and how wrong they are, and even essentially calling them names. Putting aside being correct or not, people don't take kindly to being told in that manner!:-P

But it's not all bad, and that separates this place from Reddit. The latter I just never visit anymore, b/c there is simply no longer any point to do so. In contrast, this place is full of crap... but it's not all crap, and that's... well that's... something, I guess:-).

Also, I kid - it's generally significantly better than crap - it definitely contains crap, but it's also got a lot of good stuff too.:-)

This post though is probably a lost cause indeed:-P.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

As Lemmy grows, it will attract all kinds of people. And many - e.g. lemmygrad.ml and the person who wrote the Lemmy code to begin with - are outright tankies (as far as I understand that word, it seems to mean: die-hard communists, aka such extreme leftists that they have wrapped around to becoming authoritarian rightists except with left-wing talking points, which ofc they do not see the irony in that, thinking that the correctness of their cause entitles them to act in an identical manner as the "other side" that they purportedly despise).

And like Reddit, some are literal and actual children, or at least younger people, so there's that to consider.

But aside from all of that, people are people, and that's just the way it is, I suppose. And even on top of that, sometimes as we dig we find that we have more in common than first appeared, so some of it is pure communication style. e.g. someone saying "let's not hastily jump to conclusions" and someone saying "hey, we should investigate this!" might be saying the same thing, in a roundabout way. Plus too many react to the "tone" of a message more than its content, and on and on it goes...

All we can do is focus on our own parts that we ourselves have control over:-).

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

Exactly! It's literally a service done to the Truth, which is the main goal for many of us, not to have a feeling of being "correct" or lording that over others or vengeance against someone we do not particularly like as in out- vs. in-group dynamics, but rather to rise above all of that shit and find stuff that really matters.

Put another way: if I make a correct statement, and then follow it up with two incorrect statements, then people should not trust me, hrm? Or Lemmy. Or perhaps this community. "They" get to then state how "wrong" we are - correctly! And making the other side be correct... is something that we should revile and fill us with disgust:-D.

Which is why perhaps how we say something is almost as important as what we say, I am learning, and thought I would share that also with you. Full disclosure: I am usually very bad at it, which is why I want to learn to get better.

Tryptaminev ,

There can be far more done than just an autopsy in the second case. Is there a register who has entered and left the building? Is there camera footage showing anyone accessing the room that had no business being there? Is there anything unusual in the nurses schedules? Were all procedures followed according to the rules, especially sanitary rules?

These are all things that should be investigated. If they show no signs of irregularities then the case can be closed. If there is irregularities, then these need to be investigated further, and then the question of motive comes into play, where there is one party with a very strong motive to silence the guy.

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

I presumed all of that would already be done. Then again, perhaps not. Then again, a giant military industrial contractor may have ways around such anyway, which doesn't mean that we shouldn't look, though either way I would expect the situation to at least superficially look innocent.

You could write a letter, maybe get a petition signed to back it up, to the hospital and ask that their internal security do such? Or the police in that local area.

Zink ,

I don’t know if that’s a rule of thumb or not, but it certainly makes sense.

First, the world of reliability runs on data and math. Lots of statistics, of course.

And second, aircraft are over-engineered for safety margins on top of safety margins. The test data might say you need a part that’s X thickness of aluminum in order to be 99% sure to never fail in the field. So let’s just make it 3X thickness to be safe!

So from that standpoint, back to back failures should pretty much always draw a bunch of attention in this industry.

afraid_of_zombies ,

I did do the math on it and the second guy only had a 1 in 3630 chance of dying of natural causes in that time window.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

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afraid_of_zombies ,

https://lemmy.world/comment/9809397

I admit I am not a stats guy. Please tell me what I did wrong in my math. Totally open to being corrected here.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

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afraid_of_zombies ,

Ok can you give me an actual number?

bolexforsoup , (edited )

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bolexforsoup , (edited )

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afraid_of_zombies ,

I felt no need to respond because you twice didn't answer the question I asked.

What are the odds that a 45 year old would die in a 75 day time period?

Just a simple number and how you got it. This is the third time I have asked.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

OpenStars , (edited )
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

We do ourselves no favors by sounding like conspiracy nutjobs who are uninterested in facts. When they go low, we should retain the high road, imho.

Edit: this... basically means tangentially what I had intended to say, so it is better off to be deleted, though I will leave it as strikethrough for the historical record (I really hate all those "deleted" messages, and don't want to contribute one of my own too!).

afraid_of_zombies ,

Yeah yeah I suck, get in line and take a number. Now, will attacking me bring those two murdered men back to life?

OpenStars , (edited )
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

I apologize for my wording - I agree with you that I was out of line. There was some point I was trying to make, about the need to be cautious with our wording, but somehow I ended up doing the exact thing I was trying to warn about, didn't I? Fwiw I don't actually think that you suck at all - I was just really, Really, REALLY bad at expressing myself there.:-) Thank you for not returning the favor in like manner.

afraid_of_zombies ,

You good. Enjoy your weekend

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

You too!:-)

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

Yes. What you are listing are coincidences.

Also understand that it is pretty rare for a whistleblower to have any future in the industry they are blowing the whistle on. That is throwing away years of schooling and often decades of experience. People tend to not do that if they aren't already ill and not expecting a long life.

As for "if I die, it is not suicide": Gonna get real dark for a moment. A lot of people are just looking for a way to make their life, or death, matter. Someone realizing they don't want to put themselves and their family through a very long trial might very well use that as an excuse to take the easy way out.

All that said: Obviously these need to be investigated. But there is a big difference between investigating a suspicious death and immediately jumping to conspiracy.

Kedly ,

How is your take also not a conspiracy theory? You just pinned it on the little guy instead of a megacorp

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

Well, for one thing, the definition of "conspiracy" is "a secret agreement between two or more people to perform an unlawful act". So... you can't have a one person conspiracy.

Kedly ,

Ah yes, technicalities, the best of defenses

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

I mean, ask a stupid question...

Kedly ,

I was trying to match OP's and your IQ level

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

wow good one

Kedly ,

Make a stupid statement =3

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

parpol ,

Even looking at it from a statistical perspective, these are low chances.

Let's do the numbers.

Suicide rate is 14 / 100,000 (0.00014).

Deaths from MRSA in the US in 2017 was
20,000 / 325,100,000 (0.000062).

The chance of either happening to one person is 0.000202 (0.02%).
The chance of it happening to 2/12 whistleblowers in the same year is:

1-((1−(14÷100,000))×(1−(20,000÷325,100,000)))^6 =

0.00120845658 (0.12%),

1 out of 826 cases with 12 whistleblowers would have this outcome.

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

And suicide rates go up drastically when people are overly stressed and think they have no future. Sort of like... having contributed to incredibly dangerous air travel and burning bridges with an entire industry.

Similarly, like I said, a lot of whistleblowers are ill to begin with. Because, again, it is throwing away your future in an industry. It is a lot easier to consider that when your future on this planet is measured in years or even months.

A LOT of documentaries/youtubes/whatever love to point out "the big evil company is ruining this man's life when he is just trying to get his chemotherapy so that he can have a few more months with his family". Which is indeed horrible (and why any good lawyer gets the testimony on record ASAP because people ARE pushed to suicide). But also kind of ignores that said company didn't give them cancer... Unless we are having a repeat of the COVID conspiracy theories too.

Xtallll ,
@Xtallll@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Better than 1 in a thousand, makes it seem less unlikely.

parpol , (edited )

It means that there is a 99.998% chance that they were murdered, misdiagnosed or are not really dead.

There haven't even been 1000 whistleblowers cases in recorded history, and the fact that the two deaths happened means the most likely cause by far was murder

Xtallll ,
@Xtallll@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

The SEC had 12k. Whistle blower tips in 2022 alone, so I'm going to say that less then 1000 cases in recorded history is a lie.

parpol ,

We are talking in the context of with 12 whistleblowers on the same case. There are more cases with single wistleblowers, but also, the fewer whistleblowers per case, the lower the chance of one of them dying of suicide or MRSA.

For example, if there had only been 2 whistleblowers in total in this case, not 12, the chance of both dying from suicide and MRSA would be 0.00014 * 0.000062 =
0.00000000868 (0.000000868%).

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

And you are still enacting conspiracy theory 101. You have a questionable fact that you are going to keep drilling down on and use to justify every single claim you have. But you completely ignore why suicide rates might be higher for people in a whistleblower situation or why people might be at heightened risk of medical complications in 2024. And why that may also have a link to deciding to throw away a career in the interest of the public good.

And the worst part? This will do exactly what every other nutbrain conspiracy theory does. It provides incredibly easy to refute accusations and then undermines anyone who actually cares about how much boeing knowingly allowed. Because all the people who will point out exactly what these whistleblowers fought to get out there? They are dragged down by your ranting and raving.

Maybe it was murder, maybe it was just two tragic deaths. Time will tell. But let's focus on the actual accusations rather than make up some because we want a really juicy true crime podcast?

parpol ,

The chance of killing youself after saying you're not killing yourself negates any raised suicide rate of whistleblowers, and when the chance of foulplay is vastly higher than it not being foulplay, it is no longer a conspiracy theory.
Having two whistleblowers from the same case suddenly die is extremely unlikely.

I didn't make up any accusations. I stated how it is vastly more likely they were murdered than that they weren't if I removed any circumstantial information. Adding circumstantial information very likely sways it even further into murder territory, and not the opposite as you claim.

And the worst part? This will do exactly what every other nutbrain conspiracy theory does. It provides incredibly easy to refute accusations and then undermines anyone who actually cares about how much boeing knowingly allowed. Because all the people who will point out exactly what these whistleblowers fought to get out there? They are dragged down by your ranting and raving.

This is such a ridiculous argument when your argument essentially is shilling for a company and trying to downplay how suspicious this whole thing is. By easily refutable you must mean "maybe a meteor killed both" levels of stars aligning.

But let's focus on the actual accusations rather than make up some because we want a really juicy true crime podcast?

Them being murdered automatically becomes an actual accusation.

Assassinations are not a rare occurrence, but you're making it sound like fairy tale material.

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

The chance of killing youself after saying you’re not killing yourself negates any raised suicide rate of whistleblowers,

Ah, thank you for explaining that.

A quick google that has totally gotten me on a list says that it is estimated that about 5-10% of people who have attempted suicide will die by suicide within a year. Many of those people were talked down and said they weren't going to... until they did.

and when the chance of foulplay is vastly higher than it not being foulplay,

Citation requested

Having two whistleblowers from the same case suddenly die is extremely unlikely.

Oh, is that the entirety of it? Okay. Planes tend to not have doors fall off. So if there are multiple doors falling off of planes it can't possibly be a systemic issue. It is actually an evil conspiracy theory out to attack Boeing. Because anything else by my poorly defined metrics is extremely unlikely

I didn’t make up any accusations. I stated how it is vastly more likely they were murdered than that they weren’t if I removed any circumstantial information. Adding circumstantial information very likely sways it even further into murder territory, and not the opposite as you claim.

So...

I am not accusing parpol of being a pedophile or anything. I am just saying that if I specifically pick and choose what facts and statistics I want to talk about then it totally is guaranteed and anyone who disagrees is a corporate bootlicker.

Hey, that is fun.

This is such a ridiculous argument when your argument essentially is shilling for a company and trying to downplay how suspicious this whole thing is. By easily refutable you must mean “maybe a meteor killed both” levels of stars aligning.

No. I am not trying to downplay things. I am doing the opposite. I want people to focus on the actual safety issues and design issues. Not to fantasize over what T Swizzy Wizzle will say on the podcast about this in a few months.

Also, real talk? Just because someone doesn't support you in every single way does not mean they are "shilling for a company"

Assassinations are not a rare occurrence, but you’re making it sound like fairy tale material.

... Yes. Yes assassinations are actually a very rare occurrence. Quick google says the murder rate in the US in 2022 was 5-6 murders per 100,000 people. If we assume all of those are assassinations (and not just kids dying in "gang violence" in a preschool). Same google says 14.5 suicides per 100,000 people.

Hmmm. So a bit under 3x. And, switching to chatgpt because I can't be bothered to math across the different demographics, we get 100-150 deaths per 100,000 men aged 18 to 50 from medical complications.

Gasp!

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

parpol ,

You don’t compare the stats to the population in its entirety

You do for disease and suicide as it can happen to literally anyone.

If working for a specific company or being a whistleblower affects those statistics, the company should be held responsible anyway.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

parpol ,

From what is currently known about the two whistleblowers neither were particularly at higher risk of suicide or MRSA. The person who died of MRSA was healthy and active with no history of hospitalization whatsoever. Close friends of the first whistleblower claim that suicide was very unlike him, and his previous statement of "if anything happens, it wasn't suicide" strengthens that.

There are other commenters here speculating that being a whistleblower makes you at higher risk of suicide, but there are no official statistics on that, so it is at most speculation, therefore I need to use general statistics.

All probabilistic models and datasets eventually get replaced with more accurate ones, but that doesn't discredit them until then.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

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bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

EvolvedTurtle ,

Can I have source plz

I'm not doubting you it's just that's so comedic I need to see it for myself

parpol ,

Here you go.

https://abcnews4.com/news/local/if-anything-happens-its-not-suicide-boeing-whistleblowers-prediction-before-death-south-carolina-abc-news-4-2024

sugar_in_your_tea ,

That guy also had a history of mental issues and anxiety. He was away from home experiencing high stress environments, like a court room, and he was looking at another court appearance that day.

It doesn't take a genius to see that maybe, just maybe, this is a coincidence instead of murder. He had already given the bulk of his testimony, so I really don't see the motive here.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Testimony is thrown out because he was obviously mentally unstable

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

Is that what happened...?

afraid_of_zombies ,

Will

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

Probably would have happened if it was going to.

rsuri , (edited )

There's 2 kinds of evidence.

  • Circumstantial evidence - relies on an inference to connect it to the conclusion (e.g. guy saying before hand he won't kill himself).
  • Direct evidence - no additional inference/evidence is needed (e.g. video of a guy going up to the car and shooting him).

The guy saying he won't kill himself requires inferring that he's being truthful when he said it and that he didn't change his mind. It's not non-evidence, it does point to suicide being less likely. But it's far from conclusive. If there's no sign of entering the vehicle or that a struggle occurred, then I'd argue that far outweighs his prior statement.

They just happened to work at the same company and die right before they could testify on the same thing.

That's also a common misunderstanding, at least regarding the first (I'm not as familiar with the second). I'm a bit unclear on the details of the deposition - which side wanted it and was asking the questions, etc. (detailed here) but whatever the case, it was Boeing that demanded he come back for one more day. So if Boeing wanted him to not testify that day, they'd just send him home as originally planned. The only reason they'd do it then was to silence him generally...but doing it in a way that draws so much suspicion to them seems like an implausibly bad decision. Then again, it is Boeing. (Note that this is also circumstantial evidence, and requires assuming that Boeing isn't so dumb as to kill a witness in the middle of their own deposition, which may not be warranted).

Edit: corrected my own misunderstanding of deposition

afraid_of_zombies ,

there’s no sign of entering the vehicle

Hey.

Yeah?

See this gun?

I do.

Kill yourself with it or I will kill everyone in your family. Here is a list of their names and addresses.

What if I kill you instead?

Guys who sent me will send someone else.

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

Its also inferring his friend is being truthful when he said that's what the guy said.

Rooskie91 ,

Even if the dude that "killed himself" did do it to himself, he did so because he was harassed by a company for doing his job. Even in the non conspiracy version of the story, the corporation still acted in bad faith and should be held liable for it's actions. Why is this the hill you want to die on?

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

OK, but that's a pretty big difference from hiring a hitman to explicitly murder him.

Yes, it is different.

No one is saying Boeing execs shouldn't be prosecuted.

rusticus ,

Nice try Boeing

Hegar ,
@Hegar@kbin.social avatar

It's very naive to think that a weapons dealer who also kills it's commercial airline passengers for profit isn't also killing whistleblowers.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

Bolexforpoop back wih pigshit again. The reason i don't block you is your neverending entertainment value. Keep posting king.

Snowpix ,
@Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

Three-day old account, I wouldn't be surprised if they had another one that was banned.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

But this whole thread is about assuming the worst based on half info, why would they stop when you're saying something they don't like?

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

Yeah Kbin really jumped the shark. I gave up on it as well. Maybe one day Ernst will do literally everything that he said he would but... today is not that day, nor was yesterday, and I'm done waiting. In the meantime I'm wondering if I should block the entire instance due to all the spam that the complete lack of moderation (in some communities) is sending out to the entire Fediverse. Seriously, I am surprised it hasn't been hit by waves of CP as many other instances have, in an attempt to swat it by getting the FBI involved. Anyway, I hope you enjoy your new instance better!:-) Weird conversations such as is happening on this post aside, the Fediverse is kind of a neat place!

Also, you might check the list of which instances Kbin blocks by default, and choose to block them here (Settings -> Blocks, scroll way down to instances). e.g. lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net are some really common ones that people often block. Ofc you feel free to do you, and decide first what you want to see in your feed!:-) I just mention that bc after leaving the safe and protected Kbin.social I game close to leaving Lemmy too, until I blocked those two instances and it improved my experience on the Fediverse 95%.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

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OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

Yeah... linking was hard for me to figure out.

For a user, you hit the @ sign then start typing, then you may have to wait a bit and it will make a list of every user that matches that partial string that you typed, and you have to select it from the list for it to convert into the actual link - e.g. @bolexforsoup.

For communities, I'm only recently learning this myself, it's the ! sign and then the same process - e.g. !technology.

You can hit the view source - icon to the right of up & down votes, left of reply - to see how it translates into, but that's a LOT to try to remember, while the above is a lot easier process. The web browser UI isn't really intuitive though - e.g. there are no buttons for either of those, and a bunch of other stuff doesn't work all that well either when you click it, plus beware of clicking the formatting help button b/c it won't open a new tab or anything - even though you can ONLY access it from within an EXISTING reply, nonetheless by default it will obliterate all of the text that you have typed so far and navigate to another page. None of the other options do that... but despite how there is basically zero distinction wrt its icon color or placement that might hint at that fact, that one behaves fundamentally differently from all the rest of them. So, if you are struggling, note that it may not be your fault: Lemmy is still in its infancy, and a lot of this isn't as "polished" as it may one day become.

I still love it 100-fold better than Kbin's interface. I did not think that I would, but I do.

Tbh, I feel less bad for Ernst the more time that goes by. At first I thought he was a GREAT dude, to take upon himself that whole concept of entirely re-envisioning the whole Lemmy code, and I definitely get that he was handed a bunch of lemons by life, but he also was the only one who decided what to do with them. e.g. he could have allowed a couple of other admins onto the kbin.social instance, even if he retained full & total control of the code side of things. I would not dream of trying to tell him what to do but... I also have the same rights, and since I no longer trust his word, him having broken it far too many times, I don't think I will ever go back, even if everything that he hoped to do with Kbin ends up being done. He's made his choices, and I do not respect them, though meanwhile everyone will move on regardless - which I do agree is really sad, especially after such an auspicious beginning, and along with everything I am saying I really truly do wish him the best, but... I am no longer willing to hold my breath anxiously awaiting that to happen anytime soon.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

Excellent!:-)

possiblylinux127 ,
@possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip avatar

2 people dying is kind of fishy.

woop_woop ,

I'm on your side dude, the response here is kinda nuts.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

Cheskaz ,

I needed to see this, just in general, today

Rookwood ,

Yes but our current society vests power in the corporation doing the killing. It's a problem as old as civilization, but one we still haven't solved. The problem is that these institutions and the technology they wield has never been greater.

surewhynotlem ,

We need an impartial lawnmower. Something external to the species that comes in and cuts the biggest ones in half. And it needs to be incorruptible and powerful enough to do this.

Damn, I think I just invented god again.

possiblylinux127 ,
@possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip avatar

The Germans did this....

Saledovil ,

"This world needs no savior,

just a headsman to cut her down".

"Erscheine!" (2008) By Eisregen, translated from German.

Grandwolf319 ,

I like to think that climate change is that lawnmower, we either learn to cooperate or die.

Tja ,

I invite to read history. Roman generals, European kings...

FrostyCaveman ,

Yep.. Times will change and eventually the faceless bureaucracy world we have now will morph into something more like Roman imperial military dictatorship or European absolutist monarchies. I only hope we can organically build social mitigations to the centralising power of information technology before that happens. Because as bad as it is now it would be much worse then

EvolvedTurtle ,

I mean
If it was an organized thing then I'm not sure it's so dumb

They can kill two people but if ten more people die it would look really bad on there part and would become undeniable

tonyn ,

It already looks really bad

afraid_of_zombies ,

I don't know seems like everyone I know is convinced that the first two murders were coincidence. What is keeping 10 more being that way?

John_McMurray ,

The first was probably murder, the second just coincidence.

psycho_driver ,

Or they just tried harder to make it seem like a coincidence.

EatATaco ,

Funny, just yesterday probably I was arguing with someone in another thread that was saying the people here don't actually think Boeing had these whistleblowers killed, it was just making "implications and jokes."

And here, very clearly, with a massive number of upvotes we have someone claiming that Boeing had them killed and that resulted in brave souls coming out afterward. lol

However, this also exposes another huge complaint I have with your typical lemmy-er (lemming? lemmite? what do you call a user of lemmy?): Almost no one reads the fucking article.

This isn't about new whistleblowers coming out, but their lawyer claiming he is afraid that current whistle blowers will be "scared away."

But, of course, what I've learned on reddit and even more so on lemmy is that the facts don't matter, only the narrative.

natarey ,

Almost no one reads the fucking article.

You are describing the human species. Through its entire history.

fxt_ryknow ,

Agreed. Although I will say.... While people not reading the articles was extremely common on reddit... Sadly, I feel like Lemmy is even worse about it.

EatATaco ,

When I first started on reddit many years ago, while it was clear some people didn't read the article, usually the top comment in the thread usually showed that they read the article, unless it was some kind joke. Over time it definitely got worse.

I was hoping when jumping to Lemmy that I would be able to recapture some of that magic.

Lemmy has a lot of good things going for it, but what I got in that regard is the top comment, with 100% upvotes, clearly not having read the article and spewing some unsubstantiated conspiratorial claims. It's like being in r/conspiracy sometimes.

Grandwolf319 ,

Yeah if you think we don’t do our due deligence, you should go to more right leaning social media, it’s all sound bites and knee jerk reactions.

Guy_Fieris_Hair , (edited )

Yes, varying people have different opinions on subjects. It is easy to think a comment with upvotes is the way the hivemind goes, but the hivemind has multiple factions.

I, personally, have no opinion on the matter. The dude was septic and had a stroke. While it seems unlikely that was murder, I guess it is possible if you have infinite resources to make it look natural. But that is one HELL of a coincidence to have two whistle-blowers die . .. like. .. pretty fucking insane. Watch these next ten all die and no one important bats an eye.

gravitas_deficiency ,

Almost no one reads the fucking article

Same as it ever was

systemglitch ,

Anyone saying humans suck and are terrible is likely a terrible person themselves. Decent people tend to see the better aspect of humanity.

Sanguine ,

This is a leap. You can be a good person and also see that people as a whole can be both wonderful and absolutely terrible. This is a story about a mega corp murdering two whistleblowers, so far. In this case, the people involved in making this a headline suck and are terrible.

chiliedogg ,

I was talking to someone the other day who was really bent out of shape over an extremely unpleasant customer. The kind of interaction that sticks with you for years.

I told my perspective on people. We tend to remember remarkable things - stuff that really stands out from the normal. The news media does the same thing. Normal, everyday stuff isn't "newsworthy."

So when an asshole customer stands out that much, it's because it's such a rare experience. People are mostly good, so the goodness doesn't stand out.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Yeah, bad customers can ruin your day, but I remember doing customer service that one good customer with a nice smile can make your day good again. That's why I always make an effort to be as nice as possible.

pressanykeynow ,

Counterpoint. There was one whistleblower killed, there are lots of people on this case like Boeing staff, government employees, the police, senators, the president, who haven't done shit. Now there are two murders. Any of the people who SHOULD be doing something about it doing anything? No. Now there are 12 brave people against the thousands of shit people.

ramble81 ,

One death is coincidental, two is suspicious, any more and it’s gonna become plainly obvious, and now there’s 10. That’s just delicious. They can’t silence them all.

magic_lobster_party ,

1 dead whistleblower is a tragedy. 10 dead whistleblowers are a statistic.

expatriado ,

nice reference 10/10

parpol ,

Currently at 2/10 but they'll get there.

mars296 ,

2/12

kibiz0r ,

2/12 so far

Denvil ,

10/10 survive yes?

elephantium ,
@elephantium@lemmy.world avatar

I give it a perfect 5/7

gravitas_deficiency ,

With rice?

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

octopus_ink , (edited )

So in other words, very plausible deniability.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/heart-attack-gun

We had that tech in 1968. I'm pretty sure it would be a matter of a phone call and some change from the couch cushions for Boeing to create the recent outcome.

Does this mean they did it? No.

Does it warrant the reaction folks are having about it? Absolutely yes. (Edit - In light of their current troubles and the fate of the prior whistleblower.)

MonkderDritte ,

which could cause death in minutes without leaving a trace.

Aside from the puncture wound.

AtHeartEngineer ,
@AtHeartEngineer@lemmy.world avatar

Which can be missed by an examiner

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

octopus_ink ,

Well that’s it. Case closed. The existence of a heart attack gun in 1968 proves Boeing killed 2 whistleblowers in 2024. Good job gang.

Literally no one has made that statement, including me, the guy who brought up the heart attack gun. Take a breath man.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

octopus_ink ,

Plonk.

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

From the article:

All that would be left behind was a tiny red dot where the dart entered the body, undetectable to those who didn’t know to look for it.

maynarkh ,

They may have ironed that out, this article is talking about tech that is more than half a century old. We got from first aeroplane to man on the moon in less than that.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

octopus_ink ,

Does this mean they did it? No.

Does it warrant the reaction folks are having about it? Absolutely yes. (Edit - In light of their current troubles and the fate of the prior whistleblower.)

I stand by that statement, and don't feel like trying again to connect the dots on the relevancy of my example for you. Whatever you are arguing about is - not the same.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

Tryptaminev ,

And it is suspected that thousand of elderly people are murdered every year, but it is ruled as a natural death, because the demographic is prone to natural deaths and nobody bothers to check further.

At the very least demanding a throughout investigation in both cases is absolutely reasonable.

bolexforsoup , (edited )

sadfsdfasfasf

Got_Bent ,

Planely obvious

Veneroso ,

How is your polonium tea comrade?

agressivelyPassive ,

Can't or won't?

Seriously, though, I wouldn't be surprised, if a bunch of suicides or "retractions" are happening soon.

How about 2 million if you shut up? No? How about we publish this dirt on you? Would be a shame, if some nameless robber orphans your children.

unreasonabro ,

Even one death under these circumstances is not a coincidence, and that ought to be coded into law. You'd better fucking well hope the person who blows a whistle on you is healthy - that's the world we should move towards. Not that that couldn't also be abused, but the pendulum is way too fucking far this way.

fuckingkangaroos ,

The first wasn't coincidental. He said "hey they might murder me" then he died right before testifying.

gravitas_deficiency ,

Well, iirc he didn’t show for his deposition, or the day after, or the day after that, at which point the lawyers sent people to find him and found he “committed suicide”.

This is after he said “I am absolutely not going to commit suicide over this. If I die and people say it was suicide, I was killed.”

afraid_of_zombies ,

I still don't see why they can't.

PsychedSy ,

Any serious issue should have a paper trail of some sort. Emails, meetings, part rejections, that sort of thing. There are processes in place to allow anonymous reporting of some of these things.

Siegfried ,

But you wont argue that 10 dead whistblowers can still be a tremendous coincidence, right?

reverendsteveii ,

10 more whistleblowers

My condolences to their family in these trying times.

My condolences to their family in these trying times.

My condolences to their family in these trying times.

My condolences to their family in these trying times.

My condolences to their family in these trying times.

My condolences to their family in these trying times.

My condolences to their family in these trying times.

My condolences to their family in these trying times.

My condolences to their family in these trying times.

My condolences to their family in these trying times.

Agent641 ,

Boeing:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/e685caf8-034f-4010-aeb0-e01d53eae14d.gif

mrgreyeyes ,

I laughed way to hard at this.

CrayonRosary ,

So hard you dropped an O.

corsicanguppy ,

No no. He was laughing on the way to hard, which is obviously a city, maybe a home-town, with no schooling system.

octopus_ink ,

How do I so strongly recognize this but can't recall what it's from!!??

in4aPenny ,

Hot Fuzz

loutr ,
@loutr@sh.itjust.works avatar

It's a pretty popular GIF taken from the 2007 movie Hot Fuzz.

tetris11 ,
@tetris11@lemmy.ml avatar

It's from a Star Wars spinoff movie: Hoth Tusk

Shadywack ,
@Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

I remember thinking movies just had absurd sensationalized plot lines and that our societies were past that shit. Then I saw former soviets killed by alpha particle emitting pills, whistleblowers dying, and now I'm thinking the truth is stranger than fiction.

Hang in there Edward Snowden, it's amazing that fucker threaded the needle and still lives.

Jonsmith222 ,

What if the movies are just desensitizing us for the shit they are trying to pull off?

medicsofanarchy ,
@medicsofanarchy@lemmy.world avatar

Separate tickets, dudes.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/123e6b6f-5c0f-4391-b8ff-d2a4c1b45975.png

thescoutisaspy ,

It's okay, they are all going to commit suicide by jumping off together. The plane will have no issues.

possiblylinux127 ,
@possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip avatar

The will get off the plane and then get on the shuttle never to be heard from again.

ChaoticNeutralCzech ,

The hole in the fuselage that caused them to be sucked out was actually made by one of them in a suicide/homicide. Very tragic. Somebody invest in mental health please!

restingboredface ,

For real. If ever there were a time to hop on an Amtrak, I think this would be a good one.

cmbabul ,

I would want the motherfucking Navy to take me around South America, the passenger train system in the US is sadly so sparse it makes it too easy for someone to find someone else based on odds. And Amtrak doesn’t have anti air weapons

Holzkohlen ,

You think they will make a boing machine just drop in on the train? I mean at the rate those planes are failing, I would not be surprised if that happens by chance even.
Damn, this was their plan from the start, wasn't it?

You999 ,

And Amtrak doesn’t have anti air weapons

Amtrak can pull your own private rail car. Nothing says that car couldn't be the US's navy's armored caboose which may or may not actually have anti air weapons (classified)

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/d2c60a59-10b9-435c-b2ba-899a4274449e.jpeg

cmbabul ,

Ok that’s absurdly dope but I’m still feeling safer on the aircraft carrier

trolololol ,

Hope it carries Lockheed s planes nstead of..... Boing

(Typo intentional, get off grammar Nazis)

cmbabul ,

And Raytheon missles!!

AngryCommieKender ,

Navy and Air Force still have plenty of Boeings that were made properly. They're talking about fitting the B-52 with warp engines rather than ever retire the thing

trolololol ,

B52 with warp nacelles in an aircraft carrier? Hhhhm let me check something in midjourney and I'll be back soon

trolololol ,

Oki discovered I'm trying is hopeless at drawing simple airplanes https://api.deepai.org/job-view-file/2dacf4d3-5797-4c12-95bb-52dc9fdde102/outputs/output.jpg.

SirEDCaLot ,

Oh the plane will be fine.
Being a whistleblower is very stressful though. I would not be at all surprised if many if not all of them find it just too hard to go on and end up committing suicide by shooting themselves twice in the back of the head before jumping off a building.

trolololol ,

Jumping off a building is the Russian way.

American way is walking into a school in the middle of a shooting.

Australian way is going to the mall to bet on the ponies and running into a stabber. (I'm really sorry this is too soon, but next week nobody would understand the joke)

egeres ,
@egeres@lemmy.world avatar

I feel terrible for all the work boeing's hitman is going to have to do this week 🤦🏻‍♂️

Wiz ,

Those hitmen aren't cheap, either!

HeyThisIsntTheYMCA ,
@HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world avatar

Huge Uber bill, too

CrayonMaster ,

He'll be clocking a lot of overtime this month.

considine ,

Would be funny if Boeing started cutting corners with their hitmen, too.

egeres ,
@egeres@lemmy.world avatar

Hahahh, would be hilarious to then get a whistleblower from the team of "boeing's hitmens" because of bad working conditions

trolololol ,

"do you know how many people I had to talk out this week?? I'm losing my head mate"

" Challenge accepted"

AngryCommieKender ,

You're talking them to death? That's gotta be harder than just shooting them, my man.

trolololol ,

Haha that was a typo but it made it fun

I meant take. Take out.

tetris11 ,
@tetris11@lemmy.ml avatar

"would you get shot by Boeing....?"
"me personally? no. not really."

werefreeatlast ,

George Carlin did talk about the 20? Senior citizens who past away in Bolivia when they all stood up on a goddamn rollercoaster. Right into the fresh Bolivian La Paz air. I thought I should mention it since free tickets to Dizne could be the first step Being used to reproduce such a catastrophic event.

Watch out you whistleblowing yous out there. Accept no free tickets for Dizne.

EvilEyedPanda ,

If you see something, say something... and get shot.

FinalRemix ,

Poisoned tea, the second one.

Evil_Shrubbery ,

Russian roulette with a shotgun but also with (poisoned) tea instead of vodka (not poisoned)?

mbirth ,

"See it, say it, ---" - "Shot it!"

CodeHead ,

https://i.imgflip.com/8p5kmg.jpg

image

Blackmist ,

"A lot of holes in the desert, and a lot of problems are buried in those holes. But you gotta do it right. I mean, you gotta have the hole already dug before you show up with a package in the trunk. Otherwise, you're talking about a half-hour to forty-five minutes worth of digging. And who knows who's gonna come along in that time? Pretty soon, you gotta dig a few more holes. You could be there all fuckin' night."

Wiz ,

Boeing: "Two down, ten to go!"

avidamoeba ,
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

10 down, 100 to go.

mrgreyeyes ,

"100 whistle blowers on the wall, 100 whistle blowers!
Take one down, burry the truth!
99 whistle blowers on the wall!" - Boeing quality control

SereneHurricane ,

These whistleblowers are actually from quality control.

Killer_Tree ,
@Killer_Tree@sh.itjust.works avatar

Targets: the Dirty Dozen

prettydarknwild ,
@prettydarknwild@lemmy.world avatar

whistleblower hunting season for boeing

elucubra ,

People assume that Boeing is behind this. I'm more inclined to believe that it's a major shareholder

Droechai ,

If it's a major owner of a company I would still say it's the company.

uid0gid0 ,

I guess now we know which camel came out on top. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8oCilY4szc

blazera ,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

Goddamn when are investigators gonna hear these whistles?

Shadowq8 ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    MSugarhill ,

    I think that sounds plain antisemitic...

    eldavi ,

    plane antisemitic. lol

    Buttons ,
    @Buttons@programming.dev avatar

    Criticizing the Israel government is okay (until our government outlaws it at least). Suggesting the people of Israel are some special kind of corrupt is not okay. Our corruption is our own.

    dezmd ,
    @dezmd@lemmy.world avatar

    Explain in detail how you associate Israel in a debate of the unrelated context of correlating American corruption to corporate greed.

    Is this just some underhanded antisemite sort of bullshit invoking Israel but really trying to associate Jews with corporate greed? Cuz thats what is seems to infer.

    rottingleaf ,

    I mean, suggesting that a lot of bigger US companies are infested with Israeli intelligence and suggesting that Israel is interested in corruption levels in the US not being reduced is not antisemitic. It seems sane actually.

    But I haven't seen the original comment before it was deleted.

    dezmd ,
    @dezmd@lemmy.world avatar

    That wasn't at all in the realm of rational supposition for what OP said.

    rottingleaf ,

    OK

    catloaf ,

    Why would you lead with that and then not even use it in your comment?

    FinalRemix ,

    As a former circus trainer, I agree. It's a strange preface.

    Serinus ,

    Maybe it's AI trying to hit keywords.

    queue ,
    @queue@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Mate, I hate the genocide and shit, but shut the fuck up with this. The two are unrelated.

    Evil_Shrubbery ,

    Investigators work for a company named Boeing.

    As ofc do their assassins.

    Same department and job title actually. Spawn kill basically.

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