I get where they’re coming from, but it’s still not great being a guy and only getting vague signals that you’re trying to piece together. Ghosting is also another issue that’s honestly just disrespectful.
While it may ultimately be those man children who ruin it for everyone, some upfront honesty is generally very appreciated.
It’s also a bit like the job market in some professions. The good ones are more likely to be taken, so you have a magnifying effect on people who tend not to have successful relationships.
Have you considered being upfront and honest about your feelings? Why are you trying to piece together signals instead of just saying you're interested?
That they desctibe themselves as trying to decipher signals. If they said upfront that they were interested and asked how the woman felt they would presumably get some kind of answer. Ghosting is a pretty clear signal too.
Weird presumption. Someone giving you signals you need to decipher says nothing about how frank you've been with them. Some people just give you weird vague signals no matter how directly you ask them.
If by “embarrassment” you mean “getting arrested or your entire career and life ruined by sexual harassment accusations because you accidentally made someone uncomfortable”. Don’t act as if men are giving up dating in record numbers over “embarrassment”. It’s disingenuous. They’re giving up because guys like the one in the comic cause women to view them all as “creeps”.
To offer a shortened version of the reply I gave to another user who asked that same question, barely at all. But many men are so afraid of becoming that one in a million example that they don’t want to take that chance. The same can be said of women who are afraid of being murdered for turning a guy down - they feel the risk isn’t worth the reward. While both of those fears are understandable, I personally feel that they are also contributing to the degradation of the dating pool, which is what leads to situations like the one in the comic, as fewer well-adjusted men choose to approach women and more poorly-adjusted men come in to take their place. The solution is obvious, but it’s also difficult: People need to be better to each other by taking more chances and giving more chances. Otherwise we’ll have more lonely people in ten years than we already do.
I'm going to assume you're asking in good faith even though you could have just googled "woman killed for rejecting man" (or something similar) yourself to find that out, but here's the top results for that query – meaning that these are absolutely not the only cases but just the top ones on the first page of the results:
Naturally you can claim they're lies, or exaggerations etc., but it really should be clear that this is a common phenomenon.
How many articles can you find to support the claim that men routinely get sexual harrassment charges for rejecting a woman's advances? And do you think it's comparable to getting literally murdered? And note that this is just the murders: other forms of abuse after rejection are also common
to be fair, nothing you just did was actually make a case for how common it is, you just pointed out that mass media exists in the modern day and age, by that logic I, as a disabled person, should never leave my house
It’s actually not common at all. But the few examples of it happening were bad enough that it has deterred a lot of men from approaching women at all. Plus, regular, reasonable guys don’t like the idea of asking out a woman who’s immediately afraid he’ll kill her if she says no, not just because they don’t like the idea of potentially making her uncomfortable just by approaching her, but also because even if she says yes, a relationship that has that level of fear or distrust right off the bat is doomed. Which of course leads to a vicious cycle, where the only men asking women out are douchebags, and then those women’s perception of men becomes worse. Nobody likes this cycle, but the only way to fix it is for people to be better to each other.
regular, reasonable guys don’t like the idea of asking out a woman who’s immediately afraid he’ll kill her if she says no, not just because they don’t like the idea of potentially making her uncomfortable just by approaching her, but also because even if she says yes, a relationship that has that level of fear or distrust right off the bat is doomed.
You'll have to excuse my language, but this just pissed me right the fuck off.
Frankly this is a load of bullshit and not a description of how anyone reasonable actually acts. Women getting murdered for rejecting men's approaches is incredibly common, and you're fucking placing the blame on women for fuck's sake. Jesus christ this is just so fucking infuriating. Reasonable men should understand that if they're not a goddamn murderer then they should be fine.
I made another comment with a list of the top results I got for "woman killed for rejecting man", which should hopefully drive the point home that this actually is a scarily common problem that women face – the fact that your little fucking feefees get hurt by the idea that women can be wary of men making advances is inconsequential.
Listen. I am not angry at you, but I feel you need to understand a few things.
First of all, attempting to twist what I say to support your existing assumptions about men is not the way to engage in healthy discourse. If you go into a thread looking for something to get offended about, you’ll find it, regardless of whether it’s actually offensive, and if you go into it already totally convinced of your own moral superiority, you lose out on the opportunity to learn something.
Secondly, while I’m on the topic of assumptions, not wanting to approach someone for fear they’ll prematurely judge you is absolutely a reasonable decision. At the very least, it’s hardly more unreasonable than the notion that everyone bigger than you is going to kill you if you say the wrong thing. Yes, obviously it can happen. I’m not arguing that. But if some guy on the internet demanded that you prove to every man you talk to that you’re not going to falsely accuse them of raping you if they tell you they aren’t interested in you, you would rightfully tell him to fuck off, because A) proving intentions is impossible, B) you could just as easily just never talk to men instead of jumping through a bunch of hoops, and C) you should not have to. Besides, if women being murdered for rejecting men is really as scarily common as you claim, then by your logic, having fewer men approaching women is a good thing, and therefore, calling men fragile for giving up on dating is counter-productive to your assumed goal.
And finally, I must say, accusing other people of having “hurt fee-fees” is pretty brazen of you, considering that you’ve done nothing but respond with hostility and insults, whereas I’ve tried to be considerate of your feelings and even straight up apologized to you. Clearly something must happened to you to make you feel the way you do about men, and I sympathize with your situation, but I speak from experience when I say that having trauma does not make a person entitled to spread hatred. As you said, if a man is not a murderer, then in an ideal world, that would be the end of it. But you have made it clear through your words that whether someone is a murderer or not is less important to you than whether or not you fear they could be, and when you judge people by that metric, you become part of the problem you claim to want to solve.
I didn't intend to be dismissive and if my response sounded that way then I apologise.
I agree it's difficult to be on the receiving end of vague signals, but my perspective is if there's any annoyance or frustration it should be directed at the violent/angry men who have caused women to feel unsafe.
Helping women feel safer by tackling the violence and misogyny directed at them by men will benefit everyone.
Men can’t reproduce. The fear of never getting a woman to love us is fucking scary to men because our feelings evolved around a total dependence on women to propagate our genes.
For a man, the relationship to a woman is just as valuable as his own body, in terms of viability of his genes. The types of fear we feel reflect this biological fact. We fear death yes, because death means our genes don’t reproduce. We also fear rejection for the same
reason.
I think there's three main reasons for vague signals.
They legitimately don't know how they feel. Maybe they kind of like you but aren't sure. Recommended: do not pursue. Find someone who is enthusiastic about you. Do you really want to spend your time with someone who can't make decisions and doesn't know how they feel? It's exhausting.
They are afraid or uncomfortable, and are trying to avoid upsetting you. Like the comic. Enough men will do just that or worse if they get rejected that being polite can seem safer, even if it makes me man feel like he's getting mixed signals. You know you're not like that, but they don't. Recommended: same as above.
2b. You are talking to someone who can't leave like a retail worker. Stop bothering the person who can't tell you to fuck off.
They aren't thinking about you at all. Like one time they're happy to go bowling with you but the next time they blow you off on biking. What gives?? Mixed signals?? Nah dude she just likes bowling.
Love this. Especially 2b. I hated this about working in a cafe.
I'm only talking to you at all because I'm being paid to do so. I'm only smiling because my job is customer service. I'm being nice because you're a fellow human, not because I want you in any way
There's also a sort of 1b. They're into you but are playing games like "hard to get." Again, do you really want to be with someone playing games with you? It's exhausting.
It's also dismissive of the fact that a lot of women give vague signs as their signs of interest. It's really just a damned if you do or don't situation. Either you interpret the vague signals as disinterest and move on, or you read them as a potential go ahead and you're a dick.
But that's just circular. Girls can't be direct because guys are assholes. Guys can't be direct because they don't want to be assholes. If standards for one must change, guys being ok with being assholes but being direct with their assertions, then so too must the other change standards, i.e. being direct with their signs.
Trying to live so that nobody ever sees you as an asshole is a recipe for depression and regret.
How, else do you interpret that? Assuming that depression and regret are things to be avoided, then saying living so that no one sees you as an asshole = depression would mean that, if you want to avoid depression, you necessarily have to be an asshole. I suppose you can be an asshole without being ok with it.
Yet I read other thread were women bitched and men acknowledge that we just miss signs when they interested. Its a no win situation. Man glad met my wife on a dating app and we communicated properly.
But the comic got real point because there was other thread and women dicussed dating and man the crap they deal with makes you wonder they even bother.
The answer is to flip this psychology/narrative that men have to be the ones to initiate and women are to be demure and play hard to get. Women should be approaching men more and men should be approaching women less.
Also, men need to have more platonic relationships with women and shouldn’t only be interested in, approach and talk to a woman because they want to have sex with them.
Probably best not to be so black and white. It’s probably not a healthy friendship if one of the people in the relationship just want to be friends and the other wants a sexual relationship.
We would have to define “wanting to have sex with them”. I would say 95% of young women are sexually attractive to 95% of straight men. If someone is sexually attractive does that mean “you want to have sex with them”.
David Sedaris did a great story about this I can’t remember the name of the episode. But as a sexual male whenever you see a woman one of the first things you think in your head is “would I have sex with her”. Not “will I” or even “will I pursue” but “would I”. Most of the time, the answer is yes.
Being in an actual relationship and learning and navigating friendships is difficult for all humans.
But to say men should stop wanting to have sex with women is ignorant, and not true to reality. If you don’t like it, I guess too bad? It’s not going to change.
This doesn’t mean we should work on being more empathetic in our relationships to try and understand where others are coming from. We can still be respectful of each others boundaries while wanting to have sex with each other.
But my original point is that it is not really a friend relationship if one person has unrequited feelings the other doesn’t share.
Sure. It’s also difficult for women to trust men for all the reasons that I hope go without saying. Life is hard. You don’t have to continue the cycle.
Won’t be rejected all the time if you’re just a normal dude and don’t go into every interaction with a woman expecting that you’re entitled to their affection.
It’s not hard. Just treat people like people and get to know them beyond appearance. More importantly, prioritize values and validation of yourself that isn’t centered around getting laid and there won’t be so much pressure on whether a woman likes you or not.
When men see other men who are successful with women, that’s exactly what it looks like. Confidence is attractive to people. When the attraction is mutual, expecting that you’re entitled to affection is exactly the appropriate response.
The conflict happens when one person misses the signs that the attraction is not mutual and keeps pursuing which comes across as creepy etc. and yes women
It’s not so black and white. If it were life would probably be pretty boring.
It’s probably rude to say it but when guys ask girls out, the primary reason is most likely they want to have sex. You can have other activities and traits you enjoy sharing together as well, and there is absolutely more to life than having sex.
Men and women have similar and different complex wants and needs. Life is hard yes. But if we’re going to be offended about male sexuality then I guess we’re going to have to keep pretending that men don’t think about sex as much as they do.
Generic advice often sounds to some guys like… ok I should try to be friends with her and pretend I don’t want to have sex. The guy wants sex and will follow any advice and process to reach that goal. To tell the guy to not want sex is useless advice, because he wants it.
I see your point about having values and not basing your validation and ego around what other people think of you, it’s very important for healthy self esteem. But there’s no simple answer and we all have to navigate our complex personal relationships on the fly as we go, and some lessons are difficult to learn. I don’t have the answers but it’s interesting discussion.
I stopped reading after the first paragraph. Nobody is ever entitled to affection whether somebody is attracted to them or not. Even in a committed relationship. You can expect it, but you’re never entitled to it.
You can put your head in the sand if you like, I prefer living in reality. Where semantics are much less difficult to understand than actual human interactions and relationships.
You’re trying to draw a red line in on invisible sand and saying don’t cross this line. No one but you knows where that line is but you will know it when they cross the line, and if they do they are a bad person. This doesn’t help us become better people but I guess it makes you feel superior because you’re in the right?
Hm. You’re projecting a lot into this conversation. There is no semantics with consent. Nobody is entitled to anybody’s affection and much less their body (I know you didn’t say this part but this whole discussion is about sex so I imagine it’s implied). No superiority here. That’s all in your head. I’m just trying to explain how it is and why some people might be feeling rejected.
We can and should validate everybody’s feelings but not at the expense of others’ safety and autonomy, and we can validate feelings while at the same time not enabling and perpetuating bad behavior that got the person feeling rejected in the first place.
All due respect, just telling it like it is. No ego here.
Dalto is right, we are talking past one another. You’re not looking at the context of what I was saying and you are just saying consent is consent. That’s all well and good but navigating that is not black and white. Human relationships are more complex than just saying consent is consent and no one is entitled. It’s just a talking point but in reality relationships are complex and nuanced. Autonomy and consent is really important and necessary in relationships especially sexual ones.
I mean, I dunno, I do think it's sort of stupid idea to, as I see it, give men the advice to just sort of, pretend they like someone, when realistically they just want to have sex. Basically just telling them to, say, be courteous, or whatever, or to "be themselves", when "themselves" is the guy that's courteous, has sex, and then ghosts a chick, or does something worse. I think the advice kind of originates from the idea that sexual relationships will more naturally evolve into normal relationships over time, and if they just have sex, then their relationships will naturally evolve from there. It's a perspective where sex is the end goal, rather than like, third base, and then when they are unable to achieve sex, they turn into incels, and then when they achieve it and it doesn't work out how they want, they turn into cynical red pill grifters. Like, it's a very conventional reasoning for chastity before marriage, right, that you have sex, and that's sort of, the foundation of the relationship. I think that's really kind of stupid and misunderstands what the role of marriage is, but nonetheless, that's the origin of that advice, I think.
I think probably the difference would be that, upper in the comment chain, you respond to a comment about "men should be able to be friends with women without wanting to have sex with them", you respond to that with, "nah it's just gonna happen anyways". Like, the men wanting to have sex. I dunno, I think human behavior, if anything, is successful in it's flexibility, and I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation to think that both sexes should be able to socialize outside of their sex without sex being the primary driving motivation. Especially for men. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation, and I think it's actually a pretty healthy one.
This isn't to say that men shouldn't necessarily experience sexual attraction, right, because that's sort of, harder for most men to exercise some level of self-control over. But I don't think it's a step too far to say that they should try not to show this sexual attraction in their behavior, or use it as a primary motivator in their behavior. I think it's probably more that one leads to the other, and men who exercise this level of self-control over their sexual attraction will probably be more consistently able to control their sexual attraction over time.
I mean, sometimes you'll get a boner in class or whatever, right, which I would consider more just a physiological oddity than originating from sexual attraction, but even that's not common if you're not a teenage boy. Usually, real sexual attraction comes from some level of like, human behaviors which can be changed. A stray or conscious glance at someone, a loop of thoughts, etc. This is sort of, related to normal human self-control, right. It's hard to not think of a pink elephant, if I tell you to think of one, right? But at the same time, it can be done, and you can not think about it. You can just, not really process it consciously, or cut off that thought at the root and think about something else. That's maybe getting more into the weeds a bit, though, and certainly, it's variable, depending on the person.
I also think there's probably a multitude of contexts in which two people can be experiencing sexual attraction and it's not right for them to both enter a relationship, have sex, or, have an expectation of affection. I would say, certainly, I understand the other person's perspective in basically never expecting that.
I think you and this other bloke are talking past each other a bit, it seems like they're talking more about just, men and women being able to have more platonic relationships, which, yeah, that seems healthy and probably like it should happen more, and you're talking more about like, the nuance of human behavior in maybe a less prescriptive way.
Interesting…. I think you’re right in that we are probably talking past one another.
We can and hopefully we all do engage in platonic relationships where sex is not an expectation… I hope so dear lord.
It does upset me though in these conversations where some one just says… hey, don’t be a dick, it’s easy…. As if that is useful or helpful advice… and then also the canned and simplified response of sex is never an entitlement or an expectation. It’s not always that black and white. Yes we all have autonomy, and yes all sexual relationships should be consensual.
Human sexuality is a bizzarre thing and a lot of the things that we tell guys to do is the exact opposite of what should be done depending on the exact circumstances. It’s difficult to navigate, because women are not an algorithm where the correct input can be given to achieve the expected results, any more than men are. We are all complex. So one guy can do and say things depending on circumstances that would and do come across as creepy if another guy sees it and tries the same thing.
And in this comic I think it does speak to a lot of women’s personal experience.
Understanding one sides point of view doesn’t have to belittle the other persons experience on the other side either.
I’m glad we didn’t start attacking each other, it’s really interesting to me like I said. Thanks for responding.
I've seen this before in the thread, and I kind of wonder about it. I don't think that like, an inability to communicate, or, realistically, in inability for communication to take place (which could be due to either person), is necessarily an indication that a relationship is impossible or undesirable. There's more to people that just sort of, their surface level ability to communicate with one another, or show outward signals. Personality compatibility, shared interests, sexual attraction, even. Certainly, I'd say it's pretty important, that people are able to communicate with each other, but I also don't think it's unreasonable to expect that, as two people naturally spend time together, they'll probably get better at communication. Especially if they're actually capable of recognizing that they're not effectively communicating. What are two people doing, spending time together constantly, if they're not in some kind of relationship already, you know?
So I dunno, it's one kind of, cause and effect, that's mixed into the pot of many, but I think it's maybe a mistake to prioritize it so highly, before any other considerations.
Ghosting is also another issue that’s honestly just disrespectful.
While that can be annoying, if somebody's ghosting you, that's just a signal to move on, yeah? You probably don't want a relationship with somebody who can't communicate, anyway.
It's a shitty signal because it is just not replying to you and not a specific signal on its own. Could be for a bunch of reasons so you'll have to guess that they're ghosting you. It takes a while and even then you might not be sure.
It could be that you are busy, had some issues, many other reasons. The whole point of a clear signal is that it's easy to understand and with as little room for misunderstanding, which ghosting is obviously not. If you want to ghost someone, by all means, but it's def not a clear or direct signal.
Not to mention, I thought the whole point was that you don't have to be direct and clear about it and hence won't have to face the possible backlash.
Your need for “closure” or whatever doesn’t matter.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I didn't think my "needs" were a subject of the discussion lol
This exact kind of situation does happen all the time. I don't believe it's a majority of men at all, but even if it's a small percentage, that's still a lot because of the magnitude of their actions. Even if it's only a 5% chance that rejecting a guy is going to cause them to go completely off the rails, you're still not going to want to take that chance because there's nothing in it for you, and in those 5% of cases it's going to be extremely upsetting, or in some cases, actually physically dangerous to you.
If a woman gives me vague signals it's a sign that she's not right for me. Everything other than a "hell yes" is a no. Which is fine, I'm okay with being alone. But I'm not going to chase someone who hints that they're into me, because I'm too damn old for that shit.
No, it's not. If I'm talking to someone and they look disinterested, that's not a "hell yes." If they're standing there while their four-top is waiting on refills, that's not a "hell yes."
A "hell yes" is them asking me questions, or sharing a relatable story. It's them smiling and looking at me when I talk. A "hell yes" is me asking "would you like to talk alone" and her saying "hell yes."
Get used to being alone. Learn to love its freedom and spontaneity, and then find someone who's better than that who says "hell yes."
Well I'm just saying I've had not hell yes signals turned into a hell yes date very quickly when I asked them out. Of course I always ask them very open ended so they have all the chance to say no but I got a "yes of course!"
Sometimes people are just a bit shy or afraid, I know I probably give of pretty meh signals even if I'm crushing hard.
I agree it's very important not to fool yourself but sometimes you gotta ask to know for sure and I don't think it's that black and white all the time
E: love a good Convo down vote no reply.. weak sauce.
I understand risk and security, sure. I carry a weapon everywhere I go because I understand it intimately.
I just object to the idea a person is “being terrorized” by that situation. As if all the people interacting with them are terrorists, because they are too confused about their relationship to their own fear and safety to carry a weapon.
I got terrorized by one person once, and now I keep that weapon on me at every moment I’m not behind my own locked doors. I do not believe that I am being terrorized, simply because I live in a dangerous environment.
Words have meaning, and the meaning matters. A person who is anxious is not, thereby, being “terrorized”.
“Schrodinger’s rapist” indeed, as if the concept of a dangerous environment didn’t exist before the year 2010 when that term got coined by people who think they’re the first to encounter the world.
Also, don’t take the disrespect personally. Especially if it’s someone new in your life, they don’t know you deeply enough for that to be a personal thing.
It’s just the game she’s decided is necessary for her safety. It might be perceivable as disrespectful, but security procedures often are. Like if you went to your friend’s house and they demanded to search you for weapons that might seem disrespectful.
But you’re not friends with this person ghosting you. They don’t know who you are. And in some environments, when someone unknown to you comes to your house you pat them down for weapons, even if it diminishes the hospitality.
Exactly, I don't blame them at all for anything. They don't know me, I barely know them. If they don't want to talk to me I have all you randos who reply to my comments. But I'm not gonna chase somebody who wants to get away. My biggest turn-on is someone who really, really wants me.
Ghosting is also another issue that’s honestly just disrespectful.
Maybe it's because I'm a zoomer, but ghosting for me is just kind of expected. It's mildly frustrating to encounter someone who doesn't really reciprocate your feelings or what have you, and it's maybe more disrespectful if it happens like, after the second or third date, but if someone ghosts you after the first date, I don't really think it matters that much. Certainly, I'd rather not have to confront it than have them tell me that they're not interested. That's not really a satisfying answer, "they're not interested", right. It makes you want to ask "why", but realistically they're not going to be able to give you a reasonable, realistic, actionable answer. They're just gonna be pulling stuff outta their ass. So I don't really care all that much, I don't think it matters.
I concur. It is also very hard to make a rationale for whether your date is ghosting you, is just busy, or is not in a good mood. Obviously, if she is not in a good mood or is busy, she would prefer not to reply to me (because she might unintentionally ruin the bond), but what if she's just not interested in me and thus is ignoring me?
If you like this person a lot, your feelings will likely corrupt your rationale. Your hopes won't let you move on; you will keep suffering, deciding whether to move on or not.
Thank you. This is just a reaction shitty people can have regardless of gender. If their fragile ego can't handle a rejection they go to anger and insults immediately. So bizarre.
One thing women does that men don't... Is that they remember every single time you did something dumb, and they will use that as ammunition in every fight.
First, this is not exclusive to women. Men can and do do this. Second, if that's your experience then you need to hang around with better women. My wife does not do this, even in the very rare instances that we've ever had a fight about something. Probably because she's a normal, mature adult who recognizes that people, including me, make mistakes now and then.
Of course. Not all women will do this. Your wife doesn't do it, that's great. But we all have different experiences in life. Everyone gets treated differently. So all these discussions are is about our subjective experiences.
We live in a world which contains certain individuals who make millions of dollars by pretending to be perpetually victimized. A little skepticism is natural. I don’t expect you to fix that, I simply expect you to acknowledge that the problem of shitty men like the one in the comic is a problem of a similar scale and will not be solved overnight. And also that it will not be solved by demonizing men.
Lashing out doesn’t exactly make you look like a stable, confident individual yourself, nor will it particularly inspire people to take your problems seriously. Just as the douchebag in the comic will not earn the respect or affection of women by calling them bitches, so too will you not convince men to treat you as an equal by immediately calling them fragile. I implore you to reflect on that. It’s better to make friends than enemies.
Lol. No one needs misogynistic friends. Your polite demeanor belies your refusal to actually listen when women talk to you. It's pathetically transparent. People like you are why women ghost and refuse to be straight. Just like the comic suggests.
I… legitimately have no idea why you think I’m a misogynist. I say the things I say because I care about and respect women. The last thing I want is for there to be more douchebags out there harassing women because Zoe Quinn or some other sleazy online opportunist with a victim complex stands to make money by diluting the seriousness of women’s problems. Those people are just as bad for you as they are for me. So if I worded that in a way that could be interpreted as misogynistic, then I sincerely apologize, because clearly there was some sort of miscommunication along the line somewhere.
Neither does trying to apply arbitrary labels to people in an attempt to discredit them. Ad hominem is considered a logical fallacy for a reason. If you think I’m wrong about something, show me why you believe that, and I will concede if your arguments are valid. So far, you’ve instead opted to call me a sealion for suggesting that a socially-harmful blanket generalization like “men are bad and dangerous and don’t respect women” requires more proof than someone’s personal anecdotes and feelings. You’d want proof if someone on the internet was calling black people criminals or women gold-diggers or trans people child molesters, and as I’ve already had to state previously, discrimination and prejudice do not become okay based on how you personally feel about the group you’re discriminating against. If they did, then the douchebag in the comic would be morally justified.
Young fellas; as a not so young fella who some say used to fuck: Don't be a dick while thinking with your dick.
It's that easy. You be you, be whatever you're interested in, and just use your goddamn eye balls to read if the person is uncomfortable. If they are, smile and fuck off king. Keep it going; don't be a dick and watch that aura work and that dick get wet.
But remember, you have to genuinely not be a dick. Be yourself, be assertive or not, there's someone (many someones even) for everyone and never mind the bullshit rules 1 and 2 you self-deluded fucks.
Don't. Be. A. Dick.
You'll be happier, the people around you will be happier, and you will fuck and feel good about it while making others feel good about it. Simple secret.
I'm also a not-so-young dude - forgotten generation - and honestly I don't remember guys being like this. At least, not to women's faces. Being rejected sucks and is a hit to your self-image, so there was the occasional after-the-fact, booze-fueled name-calling while among the guys, but to must of us, being rejected was something we were embarrassed about and didn't advertise by sharing.
Our generations - boomers, gen-x - are selfish, greedy, and short sighted. OTOH, from survey of N=1 (my wife) getting this sort of response from men wasn't a concern.
I mean there is also a massive amount of underreporting of sexual violence from that time and if you were born a man then there's a good chance that if you were respectful you may have never been in the room where someone was getting assaulted or harassed. That's not your fault, I'm glad you might not have been one of the shitty people to hurt others, but I'm pretty sure this shit has been happening a long time.
coming from a no-so-old dude who believes in respect and vibing.
Rape is another matter. Rape has been prevelant and underreported since, well, forever; and I doubt the rates of rape have gone down. In fact, since the definition of rape has been increasingly broadened, sexual violence crime rates have almost certainly been increasing.
The meme, and myself, were not talking about rape, or inequality, or being not being able to vote. I was only talking about women today being increasingly afraid to turn down men.
How so? I never said you weren't supposed to feel bad or that you couldn't. Lick your wounds if you want. Just don't lash out over it.
It will make you a genuinely more likeable person if you don't lash out at someone for rejecting you. No sane person wants to date an individual with a temper like that, especially if you put it on display before the relationship even begins.
I would never defend or say that behavior is justified by hurt feelings. I am saying that just saying "just don't take rejection personally" is in no way a helpful response. To misquote Schoppenhauer, a person can choose how they react, but they can't choose how they feel -- especially when hormones are involved.
Why would you remember guys being like this if you're not a woman? Obviously you would not experience this situation if you were never in this situation because you're a man. This interaction is going to happen where you don't see them. Just ask some women around you if they've ever been scared by the response of a man they rejected. You'll find that the majority of women have.
Like when the contraceptive pill came in it made it harder for a lot of women to say no to having sex as they couldn't say they were worried about pregnancy. - so even then women needed a tolerated reason to say no to men.
Yeah as a woman who gets plenty of women. Women want to fuck too. If the lady you’re hitting on isn’t reciprocating that’s cool find one who is.
Also your mental and emotional shit being together is way more attractive than it has any right to be. I’m not kidding, I’m moderately attractive but the fact that I can take no for an answer, clean my bathroom, and introspect on my emotions does wonders with the women already attracted to me.
Remember you aren’t gonna turn a no into a yes, but you can turn a yes into a no or a no into a restraining order.
I was out for a long run yesterday. Playing the Hype Running List on Spotify. Enjoying most of the songs/artists being played thwre, eg, RATM, Beastie Boys, even some older stuff.
One song I was a bit meh about was The Boys Are Back In Town by Thin Lizzie. But this time, the lyrics made me stop and have a wtf moment. Here’s what I’m referring to:
You know that chick that used to dance a lot
Every night she'd be on the floor, shakin' what she's got
Man, when I tell you she was cool, she was red-hot
I mean, she was steamin'
And that time over at Johnny's place
Well, this chick got up and she slapped Johnny's face
Man, we just fell about the place
If that chick don't wanna know, forget her
And I was like “hold up, are they saying what I think they’re saying?” Like, why would she slap his face? And why would you guys be dismissive of her and cool with Johnny?
Being hot/attractive doesn’t give you license to assault someone. So fuck off with that shit.
I hate this rhetoric. It implies that this a refular occurence. It is just a man hating comment. If this is happening to you frequently, maybe you are the problem. I am tired of being assumed an asshole just because I am a man. It is sexist. Plain and simple.
Or, perhaps both genders have assholes among them and we, as a society, have lost our ability to communicate with the opposite (or same) sex as caring, feeling human beings.
I agree, I was just flipping back the dumb logic of "it isnt widespread, and if it is, it is your fault"
We should communicate more, and the comic is a pretty good communication of why women are often (or rather, seem often) dodgy/cagey with men who are interested in them.
The idiotic implication that the behavior of other human beings is your responsibility because they're the same sex as you is frustratingly common.
The irony is that the people who say stuff like that magically realize how invalid the logic is when it comes to any other demographic--you'd never catch them telling black people that black crime is exclusively their responsibility, for example.
Not sure I buy that this comic isn't a valid perspective. You've read into it that the author is claiming this is a universal experience but from the context it could equally be theirs.
Men and women alike are both awkward and bad at acknowledging rejection so I'm certain there is another comic out there with an alternative point of view on a situation like this.
Kind of an aside, but I learnt through harsh experiences as a youth that people basically categorise everyone else into a potential viable partner or not within about 5 mins of meeting them. Once that window has shut it is hard to change someone's opinion of you. I suspect situations like this comic arise because the person asking for the date is asking without looking for cues from the other person that they see them as a potential romantic interest.
I hear you. However I think the overall angst is geared towards the perspective that this is most likely outcome from men. I know there are jerks. But we are not all jerks. And he seems to have been told many times it's assumed he will be a jerk.
This is the exact same logic used by white supremacists to rationalize criticizing black people as a group.
Unless you behave like the man in the comic, this isn’t about you.
'If you're a black guy who ISN'T like the stupid violent gangster stereotype I just depicted, this isn't about you. How dare you be offended at my depiction!'
Come on dude seriously? You think criticizing commonplace sexism and harassment in our culture is the same as white supremacists? You need to listen to some women more often.
You think criticizing commonplace sexism and harassment in our culture is the same as white supremacists?
I think, scratch that, know, that you are very poor at understanding simple analogies and basic logic.
You'd be the person who, if someone talked about how murder and shoplifting are both crimes/illegal, would say "Come on dude seriously? You think shoplifting is just as bad as murder?"
Wow you totally destroyed me with that made up argument and things I didn't say, after I clearly described the differences and spelled out my view. Clearly you have a point and aren't just being overly defensive.
If you're in a club with 99 amazing men, and one totally perverted creep who flips to aggression on a dime, guys like that won't stop after harassing the first woman they meet in the club. By the end of the night, 4 out of 5 women who attended that club have had an experience of a guy hitting on them and getting aggressive when they reject him, and there's a good chance it's all the same guy. It doesn't matter that proportionally there are waaaay more good men at the club, the reality is that almost every woman in that club had a scary experience that night because of a man.
Now that happens every night you go out, if it's not you getting harassed, it's your bestie and you need to stick together. Sure, you and your girls are meeting 2 or 3 great guys who you have lovely interactions without. But in the uber home you're not talking about how nice that bloke and his mates you met on the dance floor was, you're checking in to make sure your friend is okay after that one guy tried to slip his hand up her skirt while she was ordering at the bar, only to get threatened with rape when she said "please stop that".
So, yes, it is a regular occurrence, not because the men who do this are regular in the population (though in some areas due to the local subcultures, they are) it's a regular occurrence because the few men who do this are serial harassers, and for every woman you politely and respectfully flirt with, the assholes are out there harassing 10 or 20 women.
Now I do understand how frustrating it is when we say "Urgh, men" and not "Urgh, specific men who like this", but when that one creep is a new creep every time you go out, and you're creeped on every time you go out by the one guy there who is a creep, the other 99 men fade into the background because they aren't a threat, you don't need to be vigilant around them, so you aren't thinking about them. He's one guy out of 100, but his level of threat and danger dominates the women's lasting perception of the safety of the space, and why is it unsafe? Because of a man, which man? It could be any man, you won't know until you interact with them, so until you know, the danger isn't a man, it's men. I know that while there are a thousand species of snake only about 30 have a truly fatal bite, but I'm still going to say "I'm afraid of snakes", even while I'm giving a chill pet carpet python a happy little cuddle.
And it sucks, I'm sorry you get lumped in with assholes due to the way women use language to describe their fears and concerns over some men.
What you're experiencing is how these bad men effect all people, not just the women they harass. And it's a great reason to join the social movements working to reduce behaviours of concern among these groups of aggressive men.
But while it's frustrating that this social issue causes you to feel prejudged as dangerous, at least this social issue isn't a risk to your physical safety the same way it is for women.
I think @Kusimulkku expressed what I wanted to say better than I did. Yeah, calling you a schmuck was unnecessary. Sorry if that offended you, no really.
How are you unsafe on the internet? Are you willingly giving out personal details to anyone messaging you? Is someone sending you DMs where they convince you to hit yourself? Or are you just worried about viruses?
you literally came at me with a attack calling me a schmuck
Ah yes, the constant fear of being called a schmuck. Frequently confused with the constant fear of actually being a schmuck, the main difference being that the former is image-related, while the latter usually implies some form of self-awareness. Also sometimes confused with the fear of an actual attack instead of just name-calling, by people who are so sure they're right that they can't spend the two seconds to search for statistics.
I'm a dude and I would love a world where women feel safe to be open with their boundaries. This comic nails it in that the problem isn't women, it's other men.
Patriarchal society doesn't just hurt women, it hurts men too.
Any guys reading this- we don't have to be the problem, in fact we are part of the solution. We are not useless, we are not supposed to just shut up and listen, we are supposed to be role models for the next generation. We have work to do, and when everyone benefits, we will benefit too. This isn't a zero sum game.
I'm an educator, and I try to teach the girls that men don't need to be feared, and teach the boys not to be men to be afraid of. It's my job to show the boys that there is an alternative masculinity to what Andrew Tate prescribes.
If anyone wants a good YouTube male role model, I suggest John Green. I want more men who can recite Emily Dickinson and be open with their emotions in healthy ways.
There’s a flip side to this. And full disclosure, I’m a guy trying to be part of the solution.
The flip is that guys are assumed to be dangerous. That’s the default. And yeah, some guys are dangerous, but imagine if every time you met someone new they flinched back when you tried to shake their hand. Every. Single. Time. Would you continue to try to shake hands? Or would you shy away from meeting new people?
Now, obviously that example is an extreme. Virtually no one has that happen, but we see similar communicated all the time. Women crossing the street because they don’t want to walk in front of a guy. People suspicious of a man at a park just watching his kid. Etc.
I’m not saying women don’t have a right to feel nervous, or even that they are wrong to feel the way they do. I’m just pointing out that being treated like I could explode at any moment wears on my soul. And being told “this isn’t about you” really doesn’t change much about how it makes me feel.
That's a very real experience, and I have experienced that too. As a male teacher, I have often been seen with suspicion. As just a tall guy who has some self awareness, I can sense that I can be seen as a potential threat. It's exhausting.
But remember, it's not women's fault. It's the fault of asshole guys that bought into a shit idea of what masculinity is and taught women to be on guard.
The fact is the boys are not alright. They are being outperformed in school, and in all demographics except the elite, there is a drop in real wealth among men when women are climbing. This is especially true for men of color. If there is a failure of progressive change in the 2000s, it's not giving the boys a path forward beyond "no means no".
This sure sounds like an internalised version of "you're one of the good ones". It's cool man, don't let bigots gaslight you into feeling bad about your gender.
I'm not sure you're understanding the situation. Imagine if 1 out of 10 dogs you approached were aggressive, would you feel happy around dogs? Or would you protect yourself?
You're fully aware that women are taking actions are protecting themselves, so why are you taking this personally? Why not just be understanding?
It's hilarious that you started this by saying you're 'trying to be part of the solution' but are then pretending you don't understand the issue at all.
If you want to be part of the solution then start by educating yourself.
Some feelings come from prejudice. It's not saying that those feelings don't exist but they need to be looked at.
If you are upset at people having perfectly normal reactions to dangers in their environment then you need to look at those feelings and work on putting yourself in other peoples shoes.
Everything about the post was him talking about how he's understanding but it hurts us to be treated that way by default as well. Did you even fucking read it?
I don't think you read it. He is suggesting that women reacting to actual real danger is damaging to him. If he understood then it wouldn't be hurtful.
Do you get upset when a strange child is scared of you? Of course not, because you understand that new people are scary to children.
Thinking you don't look stupid mocking people for not appreciating sex-based stereotyping and assuming is the real "lol".
The extra dumb part is that the kind of guys in the first panel, are invariably not the same guys in the third panel, but the comic is desperate to 'expose' hypocrisy by pretending they are. That's another reason for the male frustration in here--it's all coming from 'first panel' guys, who all know they're not 'third panel' guys.
Probably so, I agree most men probably don't reply like the comic but it's not uncommon, I don't think the artist was trying say it's always like that but just something women worry about
This is so common. We don't really tend to discuss it really cause it kind of harsh to be public about rejections, but it happens a lot.
I had a guy ask me out a few years ago, I really delicately explained I wasn't interested, and he took it really well and we had a hug. I told everyone about that for years because of how surprising it was.
Are people with short tempers more likely to get angry at people who are bigger than them, or smaller than them? Smaller, of course.
And there you have it. That explains the entire comic. Both women and men can have short tempers, but it's way easier for a dude to scream at a woman and not end up dead. So it happens.
This is why they say that, while It's not all men, it's almost only men. Because men are bigger and it's safer for them to be angry and act immature.
So the stereotype is valid. Don't get butthurt unless you act like the guy in the comic.
I understand what you are saying, and I don't want to invalidate your concerns. I can see now that this comic resonates with women more than it would with a man.
Yeah this is the dumbest comic I’ve ever seen. An absurd characterisation of reality. I thought it was satire at first but the comments seem to be taking it seriously. There are surely assholes out there but to only this is a regular occurrence is some legbeard basement-dwelling incel nonsense.
I can't relate at all either from personal experience. My concern when reading something that I cannot relate to is that what I'm reading could have been astroturfed. We are in a pseudonymous discussion forum where anyone can LARP as anything and make shit up. It's not a stretch to say that this vulnerability could be used to further agendas through manipulation in an organized manner.
There are a few ways to verify what people are saying, that I know of. One is to use established studies, and another one is to use anecdotes. But if all I have is hearsay from some internet account, then I can't take it as truthful until I have something that can verify it. It doesn't mean I will discard what people say, or not take them seriously, but I will exercise caution.
Anyway, upon further reflection on what people have said, I am inclined to take the concerns that OP (and others here) express more seriously. It's wrong to say that these people can never exist, and I would not like to invalidate the fears that some women have for such people. I simply reacted based on my own anecdotal experience, but other people can be more unlucky than I, and may develop said fears.
A somewhat small minority of men do actually act like that and thus it is assumed that all men are definitely going to act like that so they don't have to risk danger.
It sucks horribly for both sexes but unlikely to be a better solution really
Yeah, this comic could reflect the feelings of women who were unlucky enough to meet such outrageously bad people, or at least have the fear of meeting such a person.
But to say that this is the rule is, I feel, a stretch.
By ghosting do you mean one time they don't respond and you move on with your life, or do you mean you reach out multiple times and they don't respond?
yeah, would be nice, but won't happen when there's such a big chance the guy might snap and attack them. obviously women aren't stupid and quickly learn to avoid being attacked.
How often do these attacks happen in real life? I am genuinely curious about the statistics and occurrences as I have daughters and want them to be safe.
I would say you want them to be prepared for people that won’t take no for an answer in a variety of situations. Understanding boundaries and when people will push and manipulate them, this is a real good skill to have in life in general as well. It doesn’t hurt to have a repertoire in self-defense. But yeah, it happens fairly often if you aren’t assertive and often enough even if you are.
1 in 4 women will experience sexual assault—that is, rape or attempted rape—during their lifetime.
Keep in mind these are reported statistics. Also keep in mind that the more serious issues usually are perpetrated by someone the woman knows.
Something else to mention: 1 in 26 men reported sexual assault. While women do make up the overwhelming number of cases, men can be victims too. The main difference is women are far more likely to be physically abused or killed.
Are you being sarcastic? Because there are. It doesn't take a majority to make it make women scared to be honest, just a few percentage and a few really bad experiences will make you scared.
Say, if I were attacked a few times by the same minority, would it be okay for me to look at any person of said minority as a potential attacker?
Actually, let's combine both things - let's say I'm a woman who has been sexually harrsed by a minority a few time, would it be okay for me to view all males from said minority as potential sexual harassers?
That's kind of, not really understanding the power dynamic at work, here. With minorities, being afraid of them is, probably silly, because there's a power dynamic there that's usually in, I'm assuming your example is like, a white person, usually in their favor. This is made more complicated if it's a dynamic between women and men. You know, variable depending on where you go and who you ask to what extent women have less power than men, both, societally, and physically, but certainly, that gap still exists. Especially in social conditioning, which I think is sort of, not really brought up very commonly, but definitely exists. I think the last thread I saw on lemmy about the "sexual divide" was something about true crime, and I think the extreme gendered gap in true crime kind of showcases this difference in social conditioning.
Which isn't like, "not real" or anything, that social conditioning is still a real, physical, tangible thing that exists in people's lives and shapes who they are, it's not as though they can stop believing it just because they're presented with like, a bunch of evidence to the contrary, such is the power and trauma of personal experience.
Sort of core to your question is the problem of like, why white women will call the police because they're afraid of some black dude or racial minority doing anything. Or, why white women are commonly used as a kind of, object which justifies racial violence, even going back to lynchings which take place as a result of like, false rape accusations. I think it's pretty obvious that the inverse of that isn't like, oh, well, we should just let women get raped, or something, right. That's not what you said really at all, but that's my very heavy-handed and probably stupid example of sort of, how you can see the flaws in that dynamic, there, the flaws in that like, framing. One does not lend itself to the other.
Basically, I'm just saying that you can't use racism as a metaphor for sexism, because they're not the same, and they can both intersect.
But also that implies women aren’t giving reasons or saying to back off and those are just being ignored or twisted. Do some women ghost? Yes I’m certain. Is every ghosting you hear a man talk about actually a ghosting? No I’m very certain because I recently had a friend go through this where she kept telling a guy that she’s not interested in ways that were trying to be nice about it as he’s an emotionally unstable gun nut and he just didn’t get it until she point blank told him never to reach out to her again, never to speak to her again, and then had a male friend say the same.
Honest question: did guys in the generation that makes them about 16-26 now have some sort of generationally curly hair event? Or are dudes getting perms, or what the heck is happening. Nothing against curly hair, it just seems like suddenly almost all young guys have curly hair and a broccoli hair cut.
Edit: oh, duh. Dude's are using curling irons. I'm an idiot.
It is a rejection. No reason to bend the language.
The key thing is a rejection doesn’t have to be some judgment on your whole self worth. It’s a problem when you put so much energy into it.
Instead of waiting until you’ve written your whole life story with her in the role of The Mother of Your Children, or The One Who’s Gonna Make You Cool Via Sex, just think of her as a girl it might be fun to hang out with this afternoon. And if she doesn’t want to, no biggie.
It’s investing all this energy, turning the asking out into this big emotional event, that’s the problem.
However, we all must live before we die, that's why we take the risk of leaving the basement... till you get a 30 pack of Bush light and some pizza. Then its back to the basement.
This and just not accepting a "no" have been the most common responses in my long lifetime.
Though during the soviet occupation there were also way too many cases of them reporting you to the soviets for some "corrective rape" and/or a trip to siberia because clearly you would be gay if you weren't interested but that's thankfully not a thing anymore.
There's a reason women avoid just outright saying no even if all men wouldn't react this way: The ones that do make it dangerous.
