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autotldr Bot ,

This is the best summary I could come up with:

A tech-savvy San Francisco resident has sparked conversation online after he shared a perplexing discovery about his LG washing machine's seemingly voracious appetite for data on X (formerly Twitter).

The connection to a Wi-Fi network allows the user to operate functions from a smartphone, download additional wash programs, and receive alerts when a load is complete.

Results found that smart washing machines are collecting a significant amount of user data, including personal information such as date of birth, location, and even access to photos.

article said that LG washing machines require users to provide their date of birth to use the associated app, while Samsung and Miele request access to photos and location data.

Lee is keen to embrace technological advances in everyday life but was baffled by the behavior of the washing machine and shared what he had found on X, hoping to prompt a laugh or two with his followers.

The unexpected attention prompted a wave of reactions and jokes, touching on issues including AI, bitcoin, privacy, downloadable content (DLC), and the ever-growing impact of technology on our lives.

The original article contains 553 words, the summary contains 181 words. Saved 67%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

lemmyreader ,

Good bot. t y

kescusay ,
@kescusay@lemmy.world avatar

This particular homeowner is baffled that anyone would buy a washing machine that needs an internet connection. I'm all for smart appliances, but a smart washing machine is a solution in search of a problem.

shortwavesurfer ,

I am completely in agreement and would be even willing to pay more for dumb appliances if it comes right down to it.

tal ,
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

I guess it can notify you via your cell phone when a load is done. I could see that having value.

kescusay ,
@kescusay@lemmy.world avatar

Mine plays a loud jingle when it's done, which seems to be enough for me.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Yup. There are two situations here:

  • I'm in my house and can hear the sound
  • I'm not at my house and don't care when it finishes

If I'm at home and won't hear the sound for some reason, I'll just set an alarm on my phone. My washing machine tells me how long it'll take, so there's no guesswork here.

BorgDrone ,

My washing machine tells me how long it'll take, so there's no guesswork here.

Washing machines exist that are smarter than just running a fixed program. They adjust the program, and thus duration, based om how dirty the clothes are. The same goes for dryers that look at the actual humidity of the clothes to determine if they’re finished.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Sure, and if I'm off by a few minutes, that's totally fine. I honestly don't need to know the moment my clothes are done, it can wait 20-30 minutes usually. In general, a laundry run takes an hour, plus whatever soak time I choose.

So I really don't need any network access. I guess it's fine if others want it, but I see it as a liability. If it connects to a network, that's a security vulnerability (don't want a laundry DOS) and another thing to break. Ideally, every model could optionally ship without it.

BearOfaTime ,

Hahaha, but why?

I've used the shortest cycle, on cold, for 30+ years, with less than half the detergent "recommended". Clothes are always clean.

And my clothes get dirty. Mechanic dirty (oils are tough). Welding. Tree sap from cutting down/splitting.

Malfeasant ,

Front loader?

amelia ,

Not trying to defend stupid internet connectivity but my washing machine is in the basement in a shared laundry room while I live on the second floor of the apartment building. No way I'll hear it beep so a notification would be very useful actually. This is a very common situation in Europe where a lot of people live in rental apartments.

The problem is rather that there needs to be WiFi access in the laundry room.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Is this washing machine yours? Or is it owned by the landlord? If it's the landlord's, that's a different problem entirely, since now you need multiple people to have separate configurations on the same device to get notifications, but only when their particular load is finished.

I can absolutely see a reason to have "smart" laundromats for things like error codes, abandoned loads, usage statistics, maintenance history, full coin reservoir, etc. That's the type of problem a shared laundry room would have as well, and it would be fairly easy to add a "tap to notify" feature where you scan a QR code or tap with NFC to get remote access to it.

But for a typical home situation where the laundry machine is the apartment or house, I really don't see a point, and it's just a liability.

amelia ,

It is mine. There is a room with each tenant' washing machine in the basement and that is a typical situation in Germany.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Huh, I've never heard of that before. Interesting.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

i have an old one without any of it and i dont even care, ill be there eventually and see its done.

im okay with my clothes waiting for a bit

transientpunk ,
@transientpunk@sh.itjust.works avatar

Mine is in my garage, and I can't hear the jingle from inside the house.

But two power monitoring smart plugs+ home assistant fixed that issue

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

But two power monitoring smart plugs+ home assistant fixed that issue

A timer on your phone would have done the same with less hassle.

shinratdr ,
@shinratdr@lemmy.ca avatar

Most washing machines have sensors and do not dry based on a timer. The program time is just a rough estimate, if clothes are still wet or soap bubbles are still present it will do extra rinses or spins.

NoisyFlake ,

Correct. I often find myself going downstairs to the washing machine after 2 hours because it said 1:30h, and then it still needs another 12 minutes.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

You could then just set the timer to 2:15h. Still much easier than setting up "smart" tech. It's like when a buddy of mine spent much money and put quite a bit of work into achieving that his smart light bulb lights up when he's nearing the apartment door whereas I just screw in a bulb with an integrated movement sensor that achieves exactly the same thing without pairing, sending out gigabytes of data from spying on me, and costing loads of money.

transientpunk ,
@transientpunk@sh.itjust.works avatar

Still much easier than setting up "smart" tech.

That's really on a person by person basis. I'm a software engineer, and have already automated a lot of aspects of my life, so adding another device and a new automation took me like 10 minutes to setup.

Blooper ,

Setting a timer is more of a hassle than having my washing machine notify me when it's done - however is most convenient for me. Due to the layout of my home, I am unable to hear the washing machine directly. And setting a timer on my phone sounds like a pain in the ass. And sometimes my wife or kids started a load and I don't know when they did that, but I need to do some laundry myself, so I need to know if the washer is free but I don't want to go all the way to the basement to find out.

Luckily, my washer connects to my Wi-Fi and, unfortunately, to the Internet. I very much like that it will notify me on my smart devices around the house and on my phone. It's actually a great feature. Similarly, I can see my next oven notifying me when it's preheated. Similar reasons - might be doing laundry or out of earshot when it's ready to cook.

The problem here isn't the feature itself. It's undeniably useful. The issue is that LG's programmers somehow wrote code that resulted in a tremendous amount of web traffic considering the extremely limited data that could possibly be collected by a washing machine. Think about every tiny thing you did today and write it all down in great detail. You could probably write a short novel if you really tried. And all that can be written to a file less than 1MB in size. The washing machine did not, could not collect that amount of private information about you without also sending audio and/or video. And I'm going to go ahead and assume it has neither microphones or cameras.

So, in the end, this is pretty clearly a programming error. My guess: The washing machine sent a json file containing:

  • The status of the washer (basic functionality)
  • the ssid's and signal strengths of every nearby WiFi and Bluetooth signal (this is personal data they'd sell - which is gross)
  • Mac address, rtt, ip address, and dns address of every device on the LAN (this is more personal data they'd sell - which is still gross)
    *Basic hardware health data including counters for how many cycles it has ran in its lifetime, how long it's been running, total revolutions of each motor, temperature, and humidity readings (more basic functionality)

And, due to a programming error, it sent this exact same data every second, uncompressed, all day, every day, until the stupid thing gets updated with a firmware patch.

My point is, that's simply not useful data to collect at that sort of frequency. It's true - LG wants that data , but it absolutely does not want that data sent to their servers every millisecond of every day. They want it probably once per hour. Maybe even once every 5 minutes. LG doesn't want 4GB(!) of the exact same data. Collecting and storing data costs real money and infrastructure.

TLDRB I'm going to guess that someone screwed up on the coding side and that's how you get such egregious amounts of network traffic from a washing machine.

But the one I own does a great job of notifying me and doesn't show the same traffic patterns. So I still think those and features are useful. Eventually you'll probably be glad to have them in your appliances too. There's a ton of use cases for it and it's quickly becoming standard since the technology is incredibly cheap to produce.

Source: a programmer

transientpunk ,
@transientpunk@sh.itjust.works avatar

You underestimate the strength of my ADHD. Automation keeps me from having to rely on ol' unreliable

bisby ,

Its enough for me too. But not everyone has the same use case and environment. I definitely see why someone would want this.

What I disagree with is that it needs to communicate to the internet to do this. It adds delay and potential for outage if your internet is out. But they do this so they can force you to get their app and milk you for extra data to sell. Internet capable smart devices are to harvest data not grant features. Features could be done better by ZigBee and a hub, but that doesnt grant the device a way to phone home

kent_eh ,

Then again, a simple timer on your phone could do the same thing.

jabathekek ,
@jabathekek@sopuli.xyz avatar

Or even just knowing approximately how long the cycle goes for.

riskable ,
@riskable@programming.dev avatar

Wait: Do the times listed on the screen of your washer/dryer actually reflect reality‽

My dryer will say it's got 20 minutes remaining for like an hour and a half. And yes, I clean the lint screen and vent regularly (all the way up to the roof!).

bus_factor ,

Washers usually give better estimates than dryers. How long something takes to dry depends on the material used. The washer doesn't care about anything but weight.

BearOfaTime ,

My 30 year old, no electronics dryer takes consitent time.

agressivelyPassive ,

You don't really need an accurate timer. If it says 2:30, just set an alarm to 3h and you'll be fine most of the time.

tyler ,

Modern machines don’t display accurate cycle times at all. They use sensors to detect when to finish.

mundane ,

Exactly, it's just an estimate.

madsen ,

Couldn't you just program it to start (and stop) at a given time, or make a note of how long it says on the display that it'll take?

It seems (to me) like a very, very minor improvement for a huge cost, namely that your washing machine is on your network and is internet connected.

agressivelyPassive ,

And I bet you it reduces reliability, because all those fancy electronics are absolutely crucial for it to work at all and brittle as a sand castle. So you'll end up with a white brick if the wifi module craps out or a capacitor gets too warm.

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

Yeah.

Growing up, the washer and dryer were in the basement and you could really only hear that if you were in the living room with the TV off (so... never). But as an adult (who is finally living somewhere with its own washer/dryer...), I can hear that jingle throughout the entire house if I am not watching a loud movie at the time.

Growing up, we would more or less time it. Start a load and set the alarm on your watch for when it is done. But basically any modern washer/dryer is going to use fuzzy logic based on load weight and water levels and humidity and so forth. You can approximate how long it takes, but you don't really have a proper timer. Which was annoying when my friends' washer broke and they had to do loads at my place and it was always "Can you text us when it actually finishes?" or "So... I see you play Warframe. A lot... Uhm... It says there is five more minutes left"

So yeah. I can definitely see value in a networked washer or dryer depending on your living situation. And, while it would break IMMEDIATELY, I would love a washer and dryer with SMS push notifications for apartment complexes.

Also, while it is immensely wasteful (or a great way to get mildewy clothes), there is something to being able to start a dryer load when I pass the gas station about 20 minutes from home on a snowboard day. Because that would mean that I would have time to get home, take a really quick shower, and put on toasty warm clothes to compensate for having spent a few hours bouncing in the snow. And I would allow SO much spyware to enable that...

LordKitsuna ,

I know so many people that will tell me that that is important to them. Those same people will hear the little jingle on their washing machine know that it's done, and then not go move the laundry around for 3 hours

freebee ,

It would be neat if it would then hang it to dry and when dry fold it and put it in the closet. It doesn't so it isn't. Its is just an old school jingle alert with extra (datatracking, most likely) steps.

Empricorn ,

An 1830's egg timer already resolved this problem, Future Boy...

Brkdncr ,

I love mine. It reminds me when to clean it, when the drain is acting up, and when it’s done. It can even order supplies on its own. Sure all those things can be handled with a calendar but I’m lazy.

jqubed ,
@jqubed@lemmy.world avatar

The drain issue might be hard to figure out on your own. Mine has a little notification light that comes on to run a self-clean cycle every x number of washes, but I’m pretty sure I’m the only one in my house who actually runs it.

Assman ,
@Assman@sh.itjust.works avatar

I love my brain chip. It reminds me when to clean myself, when my bowels are acting up, and when I'm dead. It can even order products I don't need on its own. Sure all those things can be handled with my own brain but I'm lazy.

- your grandkids in 2074

Brkdncr ,

You use a calendar for reminders right?

BearOfaTime ,

So it has a mechanism to let you know when the drain is clogged?

Seems like it would be better to spend that engineering on making the drain work better.

Weird.

yrnttm ,

Forgotten laundry leads to mildew. Plenty of home assistance scripts out there to remind users to empty washer/dryer.

Makes sense for manufacturers to want to build this feature into the appliance itself.

Gormadt ,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I just start a timer on my phone?

I have one for both my dryer and my washer.

I load the washer then start the timer, when it goes off I just load it in the dryer then start the other timer.

It's super easy and it's no effort at all.

I had an old wind up kitchen timer with writing on it for a while but I missed it a few too many times so I switched to the phone timers.

agressivelyPassive ,

Mildew doesn't grow in 15min, it takes hours to even smell weird and days to grow fungi. It's literally been cleaned with soap and hot water, there's not much to grow left.

freebee ,

And the less "smart" function off just automatically popping open the door when done prevents it too...

ChapulinColorado ,

You don’t need it to be on the appliance itself. Hook a power metering smart outlet and you can tell. Or a shake sensor. Or an open door sensor. Combine them all for a reliable effective way to tell if it’s done and the door has been opened, all for a much lower price than what those “smart” appliances charge the premium for. This way you can also choose vendors that work on local wifi/zigbee/z wave and don’t own a paper weight or part functional item the moment the vendor decides to shutdown the servers.

FrederikNJS ,

Agreed, and this is what I have set up for mine... But this is also technologically so far out of reach for >95% of people...

Excrubulent , (edited )
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

I just ordered a dryer that may have to go on top of my dishwasher which is on top of my washing machine - hard to explain why except to say there was no good place for the washing machine dishwasher in the kitchen.

If that happens, I'll be able to reach the clothes, but the control panel will be a bit of a stretch. In that case wifi control could be clutch.

Edit: my brain can never sort those two out.

Also I understand this is not the intended use case, I just think it's funny.

MrMeowMeow ,

I’m so curious about your kitchen setup

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

There's no dedicated spot for a dishwasher under any of the benches, and to get a hose out from the sink would need holes drilled that I'm not prepared to do because it's a rental. Also, all the wall area is spoken for, and there are doors immediately next to the kitchen on both sides. One of those doors is the laundry, so I just stuck it in there. It's a small laundry though, so there's no space side by side for anything. If the triple stack doesn't work, the dryer can go on the opposite side of the kitchen under or over my small freezer, since it doesn't need water. That's where my dishwasher would've gone if not for the hoses that would've needed to go across the floor.

dogslayeggs ,

I don't know if the stack will work, unless you have tall ceilings. Standard dishwasher is 3ft, a miniature dryer is 2ft, and a miniature washing machine is 2ft. That's 8ft without stacking hardware, and standard ceilings are 8ft 2in.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Before I spent hundreds of dollars on a dryer I did measure the space. Also, "standard" ceilings where? Given you didn't specify, I'd assume you mean in the US.

dogslayeggs ,

In the US, the standard size ceiling is due to the length and width of 2x4s. 8ft 2in is an 8ft 2x4 plus the top and bottom plate minus the flooring and ceiling drywall. In newer and more expensive houses, 9ft is starting to become more common as people are spending more and more on building.

riskable ,
@riskable@programming.dev avatar

If you're putting in a dishwasher just drill the holes. Your landlord will thank you for saving them the trouble of having to do that themselves some day.

I don't think any normal landlord would give two shits about some dishwasher-hose-sized holes drilled under a sink, between internal cabinet walls, that no one will ever see. Such holes are so far back and out of the way... No one would ever notice unless they're missing.

KillingTimeItself ,

im with this guy, vandalize the apartment to a better condition than you left it.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Those aren't the holes I'm talking about, I would drill those in a second. I've done it before.

There's enough information in my post to explain why it's not as simple as you seem to think, plus the other issues with doing it this way, and I can unpack it for you, but I'd need you to tell me you were interested in the information first.

Imgonnatrythis ,

I doubt it is needed. Certainly hope not.

givesomefucks ,

I don't think any need an internet connection...

But some people connect everything they can for some reason.

TimeSquirrel ,
@TimeSquirrel@kbin.social avatar

I set it up to alert my smart speakers when it's done so my family doesn't leave their laundry in the washer to mold and rot all day. That's about all I use the smart features for. And I do it through a 3rd party open source home automation solution.

qjkxbmwvz ,

Electricity is pretty expensive where I live, but solar opportunity is fairly good. Selling power back to grid is nowhere near as cost effective as using solar directly.

So, I could see a compelling use case of, "I want my laundry done by X o'clock. Start the wash when it'll be mostly on my cheap solar."

But yeah. I would never buy one unless it supports local-only/VLAN-restricts-internet-access usage.

rottingleaf ,

I’m all for smart appliances

I'm personally not. I'm for appliances with a standard interface, maybe, through which it can be connected to some smart home system.

I do not mean internet access or anything else "smart" in the appliance itself. I mean being able to use the same functions as buttons and indicators offer, remotely. I2C will do.

ccunix ,

What you have just described could be ZigBee and/or MQTT.

ShepherdPie ,

And Z-wave

rottingleaf ,

No need for radio even. MQTT - yes.

cmnybo ,

I2C is very short range, it's meant for connecting parts on the same board. You want something like RS-485. The Modbus protocol, which runs over RS-485 would be perfect for this.

rottingleaf ,

Yes, from quick googling seems exactly what I want.

selokichtli ,

For the love of God, I just can't understand how "needs Internet" became synonymous with "smart" in the appliances market slang. I know it's what advertisers do, but this one is abysmal.

rottingleaf ,

Well, calling a machine "smart" doesn't seem smart to me in general

Veedem ,
@Veedem@lemmy.world avatar

You can also use it to start a load while you’re at work when you didn’t want your clothes sitting after washing all day. True, there’s old school delay functions but this gives a little more control.

Not saying it’s worth it, but a feature I haven’t seen anyone else mention.

ChrisLicht ,

If you add white vinegar to load, you won’t get the ick from clothes sitting in washer for hours.

aidan ,

I can imagine that irritates some people's skin though

Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

Idk, in my particular situation I would like a smart washing machine. I have a smart fridge, that is essentially useless, but a smart washing machine would tell me when my laundry was done so I can switch it into the dryer. That actually seems useful in my particular situation.

greyhathero ,

For me it isn't about knowing when it's done, it's about it continuously annoying me if I still haven't flipped it an hour later

4am ,

There are situations where you might want to monitor water use (someone mentioned delaying cycles based on water softener status), or people like me who might need a phone reminder because I’ll forget I put a load in and get busy with something else and it’s nice if I don’t have the extra step of setting a timer and trying to get it just right.

The problem isn’t the connectivity, the problem is the proprietary cloud ecosystems. HomeAssistant is already a brilliant home automation hub, just make devices repairable and with local control and I’ll be a customer.

RvTV95XBeo ,

or people like me who might need a phone reminder because I’ll forget I put a load in and get busy with something else

This. As someone with ADHD, it's very helpful to get an extra alert when my washer/dryer is done.

I used to pull this off with a Zigbee Smart Outlet + HA, which is frankly an OK fix, but did not work for my electric dryer.

When it came time to replace my old appliances, I got a smart washer & dryer, said what the hell and put it on an isolated network. It's connected to HA via the cloud (not ideal but ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯). It just works, and I wind up with mildewy neglected clothes less often.

It's not perfect, but I'm willing to deal with isolating 2 appliances to cover for my attention span.

Salix , (edited )

I'm all for smart appliances, but a smart washing machine is a solution in search of a problem.

I personally love smart washers, they are a solution to the problem that we used to have at home.

We have 5 adults at home. The app lets us know if it's being used or not, and lets us know how much longer left.

Also let's us remind the other person to move their stuff in the washer to the dryer.

I personally do not want to walk over to our laundry room in the garage not connected to our house to check each time to see if it's available, then walk back to my room to grab my laundry, then bring it to the laundry room

I would prefer if everything was able to be used on a local network instead though. Like a Samsung machine that hosts a local server where data never leaves the home and still works.

jumjummy ,

While I don’t have a smart washing machine, I use a smart power outlet to let me know when the laundry is done, remind me if the load is still sitting in the washer without moving to the drier, etc.

Definitely some legit use cases to make the process smart.

Blue_Morpho ,

When your current washer breaks to the point of being unrepairable, you will find the only choice is an Internet connected washer.

I bought the same model Bosch dishwasher that I bought last year ( I have 2 dishwashers). Bosch added Internet to their dishwashers this year. I was enraged but had no choice. They removed some wash features from buttons and made them selectable only from the app. I haven't turned the feature on but there's Wi-Fi in my dishwasher screaming to get out to the Internet. It could likely be hijacked with the right bot attack.

We need a law that all antennas come with a physical switch. Wifi, Cell, whatever comes next. They need a physical cut off switch just like privacy doors have become common on laptop cameras.

kescusay ,
@kescusay@lemmy.world avatar

I simply will not buy a washing machine where some of the options for its regular use require an internet connection. I can see adding Bluetooth to it for things like remote control and phone notifications, or even WLAN support for connecting to some kind of smarthome hub that is internet-connected so you can get those notifications remotely. But the idea that smart == device-level internet connection is terrible. Appliances for basic living requirements, like laundry, should not require an internet connection of their own to function.

tal ,
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

I would imagine that someone might have compromised the washing machine and used it as part of a botnet to attack another system. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that washing machine companies might not be the most-proactive at pushing security updates.

TimeSquirrel ,
@TimeSquirrel@kbin.social avatar

If it's got a full general purpose CPU and OS, yeah it can be vulnerable, but a lot of IoT stuff use microcontrollers that run one monolithic program. There's usually no other OS services or hidden exploits to use, I'm having trouble imagining how you'd break out of such a device once you've taken control of it, if you can at all. Can a smarter person correct me if I'm wrong, and explain how chips like the common ESP32 and ESP8266 are vulnerable to attack? Maybe through the RTOS and Wifi stack?

I'm an embedded hobbyist so I'd like to learn about securing my own devices.

redcalcium ,

Compromised iot devices sold as residential proxy is pretty hot right now: https://thehackernews.com/2024/03/themoon-botnet-resurfaces-exploiting.html?m=1

Those are targeting Linux routers and iot devices though. However, esp32 had vulnerabilities in the past such as the fatal fury attack, though it requires physical access to execute.

silliewous ,

At this point I suspect that washing machine vendors are running botnets themselves. People won’t care anyway what happens with their appliances without consent anyway.

Brkdncr ,

This is an old article and iirc this was a reporting issue with their router. The wash machine was not using that much data.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Yeah, that's a much simpler explanation. The data any given smart device sends (unless it's streaming content) should be on the order of a few megabytes per day, if that. All it would need is:

  • outgoing notifications
  • incoming requests
  • update checks
Steve ,

A few million bytes per day is still egregious.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Depends on what it's sending. Something like a washing machine would only need a few dozen kb/day, but something like a temperature sensor could send MBs, depending on update freq.

Regardless, I want to fully control any smart device in my home, which is why I tend to not buy smart stuff.

piecat ,

Who's to say it isn't acting as a gateway for other smart devices that aren't connected to the Internet? Or part of a bot net?

Brkdncr ,

Reality.

https://www.tomshardware.com/networking/your-washing-machine-could-be-sending-37-gb-of-data-a-day

piecat ,

Another relatively innocent reason for the supposed high volume of uploads could be an error in the Asus router firmware.

Note the language could be.

whaleross , (edited )
@whaleross@lemmy.world avatar

I have a supposedly smart washing machine that came with the apartment. Setting it up in my locked down appliances network, it didn't work with home-assistant, required cloud access and wanted me to open up ports in the firewall. Nope. No network connection for you. You are a regular dumb old washing machine.

theodewere ,
@theodewere@kbin.social avatar

having lots of networked devices means your life depends on a lot of network programmers

sailingbythelee ,

I just bought a new dishwasher and it came with "smart" features like remote start and notifications, which I don't want. Easy solution: I didn't connect it to my wifi.

On the positive side, the manufacturer (Bosch) wasn't pushy about it at all. The only indication that the machine has smart features was a small instruction card, which I promptly tossed in the recycling.

mathesonian ,

I have the circuits for all my "dumb" appliances monitored by my homeassistant. Then HA sends notifications to my phone. And it doesn't need to send 3.6GB to the internet to do it.

Landless2029 ,

Circuits?

How would you homebrew a smart washer into HA?

glimse ,

Power monitors can tell when a washing machine is running and the notifications are based on that

You can do the same with a vibration sensor

Landless2029 ,

Using a smart plug that measures wattage makes the most sense.

glimse ,

Sure, just throwing out ideas. I already have a vibration sensor so that's the route I'm going for the dryer when I move

Landless2029 ,

I like the wattage sensor since you can also monitor energy use and it's applicable to more devices. Just need to set thresholds.

mathesonian ,

exactly, i use https://iotawatt.com/ to monitor at the breaker box. Integration works well with HA

tsugu ,
@tsugu@slrpnk.net avatar

r/nottheonion moment

njm1314 ,

You already have a phone in your hand just put an alarm on there. There are you eliminated the supposed use of internet on a washer.

rbn ,

  1. Newer washing machines vary in time depending on how dirty your clothes are. So the same program may take 50 minutes or 90 minutes. This cannot be solved with a regular timer.

  2. If you have a job with varying hours, you might want to start the washing mashine when you're heading home. Then you're clothes are ready to be hung as you arrive and they aren't laying around for hours.

  3. If you own photovoltaic, you might want to time energy intense home appliances such as washing machines, dish washers etc. to a period of overproduction.

Not saying, these issues are super important but there definitely are use cases for smart devices. However, I'd always recommend using a local / self-hosted rather than a cloud-based solution.

Buddahriffic ,

I just want a washer that can work with the water softener to determine if there's enough soft water for a load or if it should request the softener regenerate first. So the smart home I'd like to have is one where sometimes it will advise against doing laundry until I've acquired more salt. All without any data leaving my home network, and if I'm accessing it remotely, it's by accessing my home server without any other computer needing to be involved.

4am ,

If smart options were actually smart you could do that.

With the right devices I’m certain this can be done with HomeAssistant, but everyone who makes these appliances wants to wall you into their cloud ecosystem and harvest your activity data.

Buddahriffic ,

Yeah, technologically, it's not only possible but even simple. It would come down to the washer knowing how much water it needs for a cycle and the softener knowing how much soft water it can provide, a means of getting that information from each of them, and then an if statement with a > check and a way to tell the softener to cycle and washer to start.

I wonder when an appliance hacking community is going to rise up. I know that all that information is available to my water softener controller because I use it to manually check that before running the laundry or dishwasher. So a custom controller could add network capabilities. Then just give it an API so it can be queried and directed and the actual smart software can exist entirely on the server.

Kinda makes me want to buy an extra softener to hack and see if it's as easy as I suspect it might be, but don't want to try it with my only one because I also suspect I'm wrong lol.

treadful ,
@treadful@lemmy.zip avatar

y'all are min-maxing life a bit hard there.

EvacuateSoul ,

I thought they go off of weight. How could they tell how dirty they are?

rbn ,

Not a washing machine technician but I guess an optical sensor measuring the light permeability of the water (over time) should do the trick. Similar to a smoke detector. But I guess weight is a thing as well.

EvacuateSoul ,

That makes sense, wouldn't be that complicated that way.

Zorsith ,
@Zorsith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

A buzzer on the washer/dryer has worked fine for DECADES.

KillingTimeItself ,

my personal favorite is the part where the washer/dryer is noisy. And you can just hear it not running, and then remember to not forgor about it.

tiredofsametab ,
  1. I rarely carry my phone at home unless I'm also going to be outside.
  2. Washer can be variable on time and such (and mine's not even an IoT/"smart" one)
njm1314 ,

Well if one's true then a smart washer doesn't help you anyway does it?

tiredofsametab ,

My phone can send alerts to my watch up to like 30m away, so I would still get notifications anywhere inside and many places outside my house.

njm1314 ,

Well congrats I bet it gets alarms from your phone too then.

tiredofsametab ,

Not that I've found, actually. Certainly not on any that I set by default. Also, if I don't know how long the washer will run, I can't just set an alarm for it, now can I?

njm1314 ,

Yeah brother get good. On both counts. I mean you know good and well you can get your alarm to sound from your phone to your watch. I can't sit here and let you pretend that's not possible. That's just sad.

stoly ,

I dunno, isn't the homeowner an idiot for putting a smart washer on WiFi in the first place? We don't need smart devices, they aren't making our lives better.

MyNamesNotRobert ,

To the average person, putting that much thought and effort into it is for elite hackers only. I know a guy that does cybersecurity and still has smart everything in his house.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Must not actually be good at cybersecurity then.

pennomi ,

Anyone I know who’s actually deep into cybersecurity avoids extra devices, including smartphones. If you’re not hyper paranoid, you’ve missed the majority of what the nation states are up to.

femtech ,

Or you just know how to block and segregate it on your network.

Passerby6497 ,

Or they run everything locally or on a subnet without Internet. It's very possible to have a smart house that doesn't rely on the Internet and does everything locally.

It takes more work, but it's definitely worth it.

Zink ,

This is exactly it. So many normal people have no awareness or concern of the bad faith in so much of the corporate and tech world. They might have some negative impressions along the lines of “I was talking about X with my friend and the next ad on Facebook was X,” but even in those cases they don’t realize how deep it goes and that the companies don’t need to listen to your microphone.

iterable ,
@iterable@sh.itjust.works avatar

If you put any of these things on your wifi add them to your parental control settings that most routers have. Restrict what it can access and what times it allowed to connect to the internet.

kevincox ,
@kevincox@lemmy.ml avatar

Or ideally just don't put it on the wifi. I just set a timer for when it is done. Even those with variable cycles are fairly predictable and it isn't usually a big deal if your timer is 15min late.

iterable ,
@iterable@sh.itjust.works avatar

True it is the better option, but putting it on a guest network and adding parental control lowjacks it pretty well. Set it schedule to when you need it.

systemglitch ,

Glad I bought a non-smart washer and dryer. I've yet to encounter any situation in life where I thought, "too bad my appliance doesn't have Internet". Not once ever.

SmoothLiquidation ,

I think my oven/stove can be connected. I have never tried because I don’t see the need to preheat my oven when I am not home.

IllNess ,

Considering how security is often forgotten on smart devices, having an oven connected to the internet is pretty scary...

freebee ,

The only thing in my 6 year old washing machine that has been broken was the circuit board. Part mainly needed to cycle trough the menu because they put that instead of analog buttons. Meanwhile, I know people with certain German brand machines that are 30 years old and running perfectly for the entire 30 years, and if something would break it would 9 out of 10 be super obvious and mechanically easy to fix.

Sometimes smarter is definitely not better.

quinkin ,

The big physical on/off button on my dryer broke 4 years ago. Bypassed it and has been running strong ever since.

altima_neo ,
@altima_neo@lemmy.zip avatar

I like my old dumpy dryer. Its a motor, a belt, and the most complicated component: a timer. Ive fixed the thing several times, still runs fine despite being 15+ years old.

archchan ,
@archchan@lemmy.ml avatar

Maybe unpopular opinion but I like connected stuff. I like what you can do with modern tech. I think it's cool to have a coffee maker or something hooked up to Home Assistant so you can start a brew from your phone when you wake up.

What I don't like is when I can't control the tech. The only way I'd ever allow smart appliances is if the data never left my network and I took reasonable steps to ensure the IOT devices are isolated and secured.

ManniSturgis ,
@ManniSturgis@lemmy.zip avatar

I don't own an IoT device, but I do like the idea. I just hate the idea of not being in complete control MUCH more. If I can't do it all locally, connecting to my own server, I don't want it.

Rakonat ,

Why the fuck does my appliance need wifi? It's not ordering refills for consumables when low at a great discount nor is it going to schedule it's own maintenance as it passes lifetime milestones or detects errors.

I don't want my fucking washer/dryer to text me when the load is done and I definitely don't want my fridge to alert me I'm low on milk or bread, or the door is open. That's such a huge backdoor for anyone looking to maliciously gather data and peer into my life, definitely without my consent.

Viper_NZ ,

I have my washer and dryer on an isolated network. It’s actually useful to be able to tell if they’re done without walking to the other end of the house to check.

BreakDecks ,

Mr. moneybags over here with his house...

exanime ,

Exactly my thought hahaha my house is normal size and I can hear that sucker beeping anywhere

Now, all joking aside, what's the big advanta of knowing exactly when the cycle finishes? I get that it may vary because of the new sensor driven cycles but still.... Unless you are running a laundromat and every second of machine use counts, I can ballpark it just fine

thirteene ,

ADHD, OCD and other neuro atypicals often need reminders or an action item that needs to be cleared. The features can be used by an infinite set of one offs, starting a load remotely before driving home from work, sometimes you are just under a time crunch. The burden of responsibility here is product enshitification not making us fear features, not someone wanting to utilize a feature rich product.

exanime ,

Thank for the reply.... I do get that accessibility part for anyone with any disability...however, any device that requires manual interaction, benefits little from remote starting .. why would you put in a load but start it 8 hours later?

In any case, 100% in agreement that the fault lies with the vendors enshitification and not the product or feature .... Same with the home assistant, AI, gene mapping (23&me stuff), etc

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I can hear that sucker beeping anywhere

You can make them quieter or even silent these days with the "signal cycle" or similar setting, a legitimate thing I want to do but mine don't tell me when they're done so I leave them loud.

what's the big advanta of knowing exactly when the cycle finishes?

Even when on my Adderall I forget I set it all the time and wind up with smelly wet clothes too often. Also would be nice to get an alert if my wife set it without telling me, then I can easily swap it out if I'm not doing anything and she is.

I want a washer/dryer with these features now goddamnit

exanime ,

Yes we could make them quieter... But she who rules the laundry room won't allow it

AA5B ,

I hate laundry so try not to do it before I have to. However, especially with a family, that means I need to get through too many loads in one day. It wastes less of my time if I can feed them all through sequentially. Then when my minions are home from school I can make them cry at all the baskets of laundry to fold

exanime ,

Wife? What are you doing here?

Lol this is exactly my wife's style.... When we divided the chores long ago she picked laundry and seems to have learned to hate it ... Always seems to make it worst by leaving it all for last minute

Kids are teens now so they do their own... There is a future ;-)

AA5B ,

Haha, no …

Similar boat here. When we picked chores long ago, wife picked laundry.

… Later on she complained about carrying baskets up and down the stairs, so I did that for her.

… Still later she complained about how she could never get them all done, so I started running them through the machines for her: I know how to use a timer.

… then she complained about how long it took to fold, so the minions fold their own and I fold sheets and towels as well as my own

… then when we got divorced, she was still complaining about how much of a hassle laundry was

Now the minions are teens and I made sure they knew how to run the machines, but it more efficient for me to run everything through, and we split the folding

altima_neo ,
@altima_neo@lemmy.zip avatar

Yeah, Im starting to think I need to set up a vlan for my iot devices, but its also a bit out of my league in terms of complicatedness.

Rakonat ,

Seems entirely unnecessary. My units have buzzers that go off when they complete a cycle. I also have a phone with a timer setting, I know a load of laundry will take approx 60min to accomplish per machine. I don't see the need to spend my time and money to create a more complex system.

AA5B ,

My laundry machines are in the basement, and my current machines play a pleasant jingle when they’re done, instead of a loud buzzer. I can’t hear them. I wish there was a setting to go back to buzzer mode

Of course they also have reliable timers so I usually set my watch timer when I start the machines. Done

S_204 ,

How freaking big is your house? I'm in a rather large 3500+ sqft across 3 levels and I really never struggle to hear if the laundry is running and it's isolated in its own room on one corner of the house.... behind a solid wood door too.

Viper_NZ ,

The laundry is next to the garage and I work from the exact opposite end of the house.

Is also a front loader that’s pretty quiet even when spinning.

Fredselfish ,
@Fredselfish@lemmy.world avatar

My washer dryer are old fashioned and I live in a 1100sq ft home and can hear when the machine is running. And my dryer has a buzzer. So I think I will just not buy one with wifi.

AnalogyAddict ,

I'm in less than half your size and am two floors away from my washer. Not everyone has a nicely designed home.

That said, I generally buy the simplest appliances I can.

A_Random_Idiot ,
@A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world avatar

You know looking at a clock and realizing an hour passed and its done is free, and easy to accomplish with the features already built into your phone and most houses.

Viper_NZ ,

I have a front loader that takes anything from 1.5 - 3 hours depending on water temperature, load size etc.

It may tell me 2 hours when I start it, and still be going 2 hours 20 minutes later.

The dryer next to it is even worse when it comes to guessing duration, so having a notification pop up next to me is helpful.

Halcyon ,
@Halcyon@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

My machine shows how long the program takes when I start it. Why it needs a message when it is finished? I know the time.

Viper_NZ ,

Mine does too but can run up to 45 minutes over time depending on how it adjusts the load, water temp etc.

The dryer is a sensor heat pump dryer so I have zero idea whether it’s going to take 30 minutes or 2 hours.

It’s a feature I find useful, I can isolate it on my network and I didn’t pay extra for it.

Seems weird to be defending it.

altima_neo ,
@altima_neo@lemmy.zip avatar

My fucking washer has NFC and I cant even figure out why I would ever need that, let alone WiFi?

Features for features sake, I guess? Another bullet point on the features list.

royalbarnacle ,

It's not very useful. But, I can start a program from an app which is a lot easier than understanding all the little logos on the unit. Plus I have more flexibility to tweak it, like be faster or gentler or schedule it to cheaper electricity hours all much more easily and intuitively than in the panel.

Also timer, remote start, and letting me know when it's done are something I might use once in a blue moon.

Can I live without it, hell yes, but is it a totally useless gimmick... Well 50/50.

Riven , (edited )

I don't get the remote start, you should never start them if you're away from your home. Gonna flood or burn your house down.

altima_neo ,
@altima_neo@lemmy.zip avatar

At least in my case, its electric

Pretzilla ,

Electric dryer can still catch fire on heat mode by lint accumulation that blocks air flow.

Rather safe on no heat mode, though.

Riven ,

Funnily enough static discharge is common in dryer house fires regardless of the type of dryer you have. It's usually the lint that gets set on fire.

phoenixz ,

If, just for fucking once, they could use fully open source software to send that information directly to my mobile phone instead of using black box software to send all my info their corporate overlords, we might talk.

In principle these things aren't directly a bad idea. The fact that these asshats inserted themselves in the process is.

melpomenesclevage ,

I mean this one's kind of pointless, but I do get what youre saying.

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